A New Bitcoin Lightning Network? | Britcoiners by CoinCorner #87

Join Danny, Molly, and Zakk for this weeks ramblings. Topics this week include: Bitcoin Price, Visa plans "ambitious" crypto product, First Republic Bank, Apple remove Bitcoin white paper from MacOS, Lightning Labs announce "litd", Joe Nakamoto receives $100 from Brian Armstrong, Intel posts biggest ever quarterly loss, Brqgoo's new L2 "Tbdxxx", hashrate jumps from 288 EH/s to 450 EH/s in 6 days, mempool at ATH, and Bitcoin's BRC-20 Token Explosion. A video version of this episode is available on our YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@CoinCornerLtd This episode is sponsored by CoinCorner (https://www.coincorner.com) - A global leader in Bitcoin and Lightning services.

  • Youtube icon
  • Spotify icon
  • Apple podcast icon
  • Fountain icon
  • Twitter icon
  • Facebook icon


[Music] hello welcome back right let's run through price we'll touch on industry news we've got stable coins plan from Visa First Republic Bank um Bank of England very weird comments um Bitcoin might be removed from Apple lightning labs and their new version of lnd uh Joe Nakamoto receiving his hundred dollars finally Intel with a quarterly loss B I don't know he says b r q presenting a new Layer Two um which will be an interesting conversation Bitcoin hash rate jump in from 288 to 450 x hashes in six days uh Bitcoin BRC 20 tokens so that'll be another interesting conversation and the mempool being as high highest transaction backlog um ever which all ties in nice there we go no Dave Dave that should be in the coin Corner News but yeah no Dave see if anyone knows please let us know if people prefer it without Dave that's always great feedback it's not it's not only let us know if you do prefer it without a date yeah he's just good for a good argument that's about it what's the price where where are we at 28 748 kind of the same as last week is it um yes I don't know why we're kind of in this like 27 28 29 30 but well it's all just the same to me I think it's about the same as last week ish um boring yep hovering not a bit of a well we went up to 30k didn't we at the weekend and then back down again it's 27ish didn't have a was it this week where I had the drop because the government's selling off that was last week last week last week didn't we probably happened after we recorded very quickly yeah so yeah recovered back to about just under 30 I think it just just short of hitting 30 and then it's back down but it's just yes hovering around this 27 to 30 region um getting ready I'm sideways movement which is good long long term sideways movement is just creating Bitcoin is the real stable coin yeah um so yeah not much more to talk about on the price no the volatile days well they'll be coming back I'm sure at some point soon okay uh stable coin payments Visa so Visa shared their ambitious plan for crypto products using stable coin payments has anyone read this no no no um there's a lot of things on there that I've not even seen this week cool so this is good visa and crypto and scroll down are they always releasing yeah crypto products or ideas or whatever yeah r d probably r d Department's kind of going crazy but they do with everything um as they always have to uh there is so frustrating me I try to but there's no there's no plans it releases ambitious plans like the headlines are releasing so this is saying about the media these days the news is headlines there's never any detail and depth in these articles um oh yeah I just seen a one that says Visa is Talent hunting for their ambitious plans that's it that's it that's it so they basically put jobs out for for their ambitious plans for ambitious plans but nobody knows what their memberships plans are they're just called ambitious plans what makes a plan ambitious it's just headlines so it's clickbait so yeah it got me because I clicked on it to read it and it had no depth that's what it feels like so I just wanted to highlight that one really was uh I mean Visa can crack on doing what they're doing but yeah um come off as a tweet from the head of crypto saying we've got ambitious plans yeah that's literally what the news is yeah you should tweet out we've got ambitious plans uh it's just yeah we're not Visa though always so people wouldn't make a song and dance and clickbait headline of it unfortunately that's wild um there's not much more to say for the hiring people to work on these ambitious crypto stable coin plans so we'll keep an eye on those ambitious plans crack on Visa welcome to bitcoin when you feel like looking at this one that way uh First Republic Bank stock call it again down did it hit 50 down I think yesterday was that sorry that was last week wasn't it oh well I'm on a different bank somebody else yesterday it was yesterday yes the pack was pack West and uh Western Line I thought um First Republic had been seized it's been now since Ball by JP Morgan quiet yeah it's bits are getting bought by the second biggest bank failure in U.S history what was the first I don't know this was the second it's funneling if I was just looking at a graph that had the first one I can't remember the name of uh because it wasn't lame was it because Layman Brothers no Mikey's gonna flash that's the one that was the one on that graph I was just looking at to be honest I'm surprised it took this long I thought they were gonna fall with the other Banks the other week like a few weeks back they held on just a little bit longer right this is how it plays out yeah this was the whole Crux of whether they were gonna keep in increasing interest rates or not wasn't it at the detriments of the banks and they did increase yeah we literally predicted yeah this was predicted which was interesting and so you expect them not to increase now but they still might continue to increase if you still can't yeah I think the bigger banks are kind of soaking it all apparently and then like JP Morgan probably loving this a little bit they're kind of buying up all their competitors and the big boys are going to be mopping this up and it's kind of centralizing the US banking system even more it's global banking yeah really it's Global not just us no um and then on the back of this there's this caused a massive sell-off in Regional Bank US shares um which the likes of Pac West and stuff so it just kind of makes the problem worse and worse even if there's no problem it'll become worse because of the Snowball Effect yeah what's happening no one wants all chairs and Regional Banks anymore yeah was it I think I saw was it Sweden is it Sweden's pension fund uh massive shares they were major shareholders in um was it like Silicon Valley Bank um they were like big shareholders and then um but funnily enough because I know I don't know if that's played a part I've not read the detail of that but this is random side Tangerine but industry news that's become very quiet Sweden uh banking has pulled on all the Bitcoin businesses over there so I think it's a fellow who lost their banking from what could tell yeah I've not seen anything about that no um they've had was it handles banking I think for years um they've had it for a long time and it seems to have been pulled so I think a few of the Swedish exchanges are going under due to this um because you need to operate in Sweden as well you need to have the local license and local banking yeah I don't know if that's to do with this pension stuff because then I guess if the pension fund has lost a load of money on these Banks and then the US is blaming these Banks failing because of crypto and then that it's all politics and visuals and how things look um and it looks poorly on the industry which is where maybe they've pulled back on is there any other banks that are not looking so great at the moment that was pack West Western Alliance and there was a third one as well Deutsche Bank is still very up in the air isn't it I think yeah people are still very uncertain whether that's going to last but they're not getting bought by I thought someone was in talks to buy them so let's see it's that radar hits Twitter account he's always um like gotta count that like who's next again yeah I think they have been dodgy for a while not dodgy but shaky no they've been dodgy 100 dodgy investigated for all sorts haven't you over the years but yeah I think the First Republic it's the same kind of thing with the others is I think customers I read that customers withdrew more than 100 billion from there and then they just didn't have enough it held in deposits today essentially no just saying for all of them yeah cool so banking ongoing crisis um when it ends I don't know it's weird because it kind of I feel like this one hasn't had a big of an impact as the others but this is the second largest in US history it's almost becoming the norm isn't it which is I think yeah I feel great but when it happens there's one big blast it's like it's more shocking than it gradually happens it's not as shocking not slightly with anything isn't it I guess um Bitcoin white paper being removed from Apple I only saw this today I didn't see this so this is the day I'm wondering what happened then I assume someone's just updated and tried and it's not there anymore no rather than Apple probably didn't give a statement or anything did they No but somebody in apple must have removed it yeah yeah someone probably got fired but having it in there to be honest now so yeah it's been removed um we did wonder what they were gonna do whether they were going to keep it but it's not it's not there I guess it's not their benefit in their interests should we say maybe to say positively or negatively on it and just stay neutral I think a lot of these companies just stay neutral but you don't think by removing it that's a negative thing no because it's it's a piece of code that someone snuck in that shouldn't have been in there regardless of what that code was it should have been removed um just because it was the Bitcoin white paper doesn't make it any better or brighter it's pretty funny in like decades you can always there'll always be a certain version of Mac OS you can go back and download yeah I'll contain the Bitcoin yeah that's quite cool so the last resort if we lose it anyway uh but yeah cool just a quick highlights just touching a couple of these articles they're just touching on previous things we've spoken about just to to round up the story really isn't it um get closure yeah uh lightning Labs announced lit D All in One Suite for l d devs That's a turkey I don't know what any of that means [Laughter] um so we've well we upgraded didn't we just uh just before well before the announced but um yeah we haven't so good news I think development is still ongoing and still lightning development side of things I think it's just highlighting that really and just letting everybody know there's a new l d version to download and upgrade to if you are running anything um I personally haven't had time to look at the detail of um what is new in this release on if you've no no uh well and then lit D is kind of like the dashboard that sits on top of it isn't it um which we've played around with before but kind of like they've brought every little feature into one by the looks of it I haven't played around really yet but I'll be on our list to try and see if we make it looks like it's feature full which is good yeah what sort of features I saw some accounting stuff in there which oh yeah that's interesting that might be very useful I mean that is one of the things we've pushed two lightning Labs isn't a couple of times about accounting yeah so yeah I'm working with eight decimal places it was that it's like exporting the transactions and things for because it needs to be accounted for in the accounts sad um so yeah you know it's always the products are always maturing if you if people create an accountant software for us literally that yeah it's a good sign it's being used and real world oh Dave will be well excited about that then and he's not even here for it I know it serves him right uh Joe Nakamoto is rental Morton no no no still just cracking down which is good it's just it's good highlight and more development is still ongoing and there's more that we'll touch on shortly on that Joe Nakamoto so if I think we spoke about this didn't we last week or week before yeah um and he tried to get Brian Armstrong to send him a hundred dollars on lightning um and Brian sent it to his email address rather than uh on lightning um so Joe eventually um who's having a few conversations with Joe trying to um I'd say help but we couldn't we didn't really we weren't really any help we won't try and claim any of that help uh we did nothing um but eventually you did get that to his coin core and a lightning address from Brian's curious about how he did it though like who did it for him or or how did you because coinbase don't have lightning no that's what Joe was messaging me saying can we figure out yeah um how how is where it's come from what we did obviously we can't um it's come from another Landing node somewhere um also funny that Brian had to send it to at queencorner.io yeah um so good yeah he's a man of his word at least yeah just there's some movement there whether it's him not sending it or somebody else for him no idea I guess but um yeah just have to trust what he said maybe the first time he's ever used lightning which yeah is good I would guess it probably is yeah any Center everyone's you know everyone kind of remembers using it for the first time how quick it is and that kind of thing it's um it's quite a cool thing to to use for the first time I genuinely I can't remember the first time I used planning you know when it becomes such a regular like I can't remember the first time I remember mine it was horrible it was horrible yeah yeah it was all command line yeah why is it not working and they were like hopefully these stickers show up honestly I have no idea I can't remember how we like modeled that together to make that work yeah it was like command line so like a DOS prompt style thing and trying to how do you even open the channel I can't remember that yeah because we had to open a Channel with block stream store didn't we directly online and then make the transactions how long ago was this though like how far is lightning coming that was like two weeks into launching Landing or something it's like 2015. 2018. uh it was 18 or 19 18 18 18 yeah so it's come a long way in short time yeah oh yeah you can send a lightning transaction then yeah you know anyone can all these things takes time um but get in there that's good uh again sorry these are just rounding up news that we've spoken about the last few weeks a whole lot of new news though isn't it there's some other bits we're coming onto which are quite interesting but yeah there's not been too much of them there's a couple of conferences there's the Sailor I didn't realize it's not just a Bitcoin lightning one it's a normal one as well like Sony are there talking about PlayStation oh I didn't know that and I think just a bit of its lines all right I didn't know that from what I've seen anyway yeah they didn't make out that was the case no I wasn't aware of that I well it's in Miami the knuckle I didn't feel like Miami's been good yeah not people I don't know if it's bear Market mentality but certainly haven't seen people talking about it as much as Prague in the meantime and as well as Prague is that in a week or two yeah and then 20 seconds it was after Miami that's the same time as Miami then yeah Miami's like the 20th are we talking about the same thing I don't know BTC product the conference yeah what are you on about I'm gonna say about pizza day one's probably yeah [Laughter] looks like quite quite all right yeah it does actually some decent decent speakers yeah why are they also fish together I don't know that's what happens yeah May is kind of chaos with conferences uh so Bitcoin BDC Prague is it yeah yeah that's in one day 13 hours okay oh yeah so it's the same time as the microstrategy one and then Miami is in a couple of weeks after um so yeah there's quite a few coming up um but yeah they've not been Hypes I don't think the thermo begins though yeah yeah I'm not bothered no no I'm really not I'm in love I'm a little bit fomo but also at the same time I just can't I think I'm the same there's a lot of talking involved and there's anything so long I can smile for yeah the Miami one was it was good last year wasn't it but I think um yeah you went last year didn't you yeah it's good ages ago it does feel like a long time ago actually uh it's good for to go and see it all and to be involved and kind of meet people for the first time um which because of covered you can really meet people um so that was quite good but yeah I'm not too bothered about going regular at the moment I don't think no it feels like we've got enough to do in the office oh yeah um cool uh so just on b2c program before we move on the I was actually reading the countdown to when ticket prices go up yeah the actual date is 8th of June to the 10th okay after Miami right being South a long way from Miami all the way over to probably distance wise we're talking about yeah it seems like a lot of effort yeah a week in between if you're yeah but I don't know if you're one of the conference people then I don't know maybe that's just how you roll for me I just now so next story Intel so we had Intel last week didn't we they were pulling the uh chips they were stopping in the chips for the miners um but then they've since posted their biggest quarterly loss ever at 2.8 billion dollar loss in was that q1 this year as yeah q1 23. so you can probably start to understand why they're pulling the r d uh which is the mining chip for example um they'll be putting pulling them projects because um they are a loss at the minute yeah I read the year-on-year revenues down 36 percent and the only profit they're only profitable parts of the business is what they call PC business and they own like a self-driving car company that they bought a couple years ago all right the rest and that's profitable yeah and then the rest are all losing how is that profitable yeah I don't know I wanted to look into that yeah that's intriguing yeah because there's no nobody's selling themselves yeah the cars in that sort of capacity it's a r d at the moment unless they have funds I don't know that's weird I don't know how did they make money on that are they selling the tech to someone else Tesla or something like that maybe that's interesting um so yeah you can kind of start to understand it's not like and this is one of them things again it was highlighted for me I think everybody jumps on it as a negative towards Bitcoin again but you know there's think outside the bubble of Bitcoin is not the Forefront of everyone's minds and everybody there's bigger problems in the world a lot of the time um and these companies obviously have their main focus which is for some of them staying staying alive and staying afloat um and if they're losing 2.8 billion in a quarter then they have to really look at what they're doing I think compared to uh yeah last year's they reported an 8.1 billion profit oh okay and so I'd like to see the details on the vax that's a big loss to that's gonna basically wipe out if they continue with that right they're gonna wipe out the profit from last year do you think that was off the back of covert though they did mention covered in there but I think everyone mentions that when there's bad news or something no I mean when they event last year when they had the profit of the people setting up at home and stuff like that yeah I'm not sure yeah oh yeah they're just stopping doing the crypto stuff just to shore up their main business aren't you yeah we've got to stop taking this stuff so personally right it's not an attack on bitcoin that's what the media spins it as that's what everyone jumps on and everyone thinks gets defensive or attacks and uses it as an attack Vector but it's not you know 99 of the time in the cases I've come across it's not the case it's just you know there's bigger things at play and different what are the priorities yeah different things making the impact um moving on to brq goo um Barack Barack is back um no this is the good bro um so this was a guy that uh broke lightning that guy yeah God imagine that being like your your thing like oh that's the guy that broke so everyone knows him now um so he broke lightning about was that a month ago two months ago a couple I think yeah two months ago maybe um when we say he broke it he just did a Unchained transaction um trying to remember back to what he exactly did on-chain transaction that was I can't remember the details he did too Danny one was where he filled the witness statement tightly um and l d couldn't handle it due to them they didn't have their Max size set properly or something like that but core lightning for example continued to work yeah she's like block streams and implementation I think LDK had issues as well not just l d yeah but yeah I think they all did except core did they um so he broke it it didn't break the lightning Network as a whole lot he did a transaction that the lightning implementations most of them couldn't handle and couldn't communicate with um yeah core lightning did continue to run um so it was just an upgrade then to fix that issue and he did pull up funny message in where he says you will use cold light and then you will be happy furiated many people um so he was a funny guy there was loads of drama around that because they were saying like a block stream paying him to do this yeah but I don't think realistically they were he was just it's just a troll yeah he's a guy playing around tinkering um however so this week uh this has got massively under the radar element as well and maybe because there's no detail yet so he can't validate his claims um but he is going to be presenting or he did present at a conference but we've not seen the detail of it um a new layer too that he's created he's not named it so it's called a TBD XXX um very catchy yeah um you could see that on a T-shirt and he is basically claiming that this will instead of like using lightning for example as Layer Two this will be a new version of lightning um but it will remove pretty much all of Lightning's pain points um so you won't need inbound outbound liquidity stuff um you won't need to create channels um you won't need to be online 24 7. it's like it's basically solving everything yeah that is floating into the radar then massively yeah if it's true if if that's going to be the question he's clearly a clever guy if he's been able to do what he's done in the past and he is he does seem to know we're talking about from what I've seen um but if that comes out and it's usable then that's a potential better layer too than lightning um so that will be really interesting Whittle this is always going to be the case and always going to be the the thing going forward if a new piece technology comes out that is better then people will slowly adopt that and you'll drop the other things that does mean like all the effort and the energy I guess that's been put into lightning over the years and becomes theoretically redundant in some capacity see now this does it though or does it oh well this is what I'm coming on to lightning didn't exist no you wouldn't no no yeah that's you create on the back yeah build on the shoulder of giants isn't it the same um stand on the shoulder Giants so it's like it will build on top of that so he's he's realized Lightning's got all these pain points and he wants to fix them so rather than fixing he's started again and fix them using something he does need sorry I'll come back to my thought process which is good because it's incredibly interesting argument that'll probably spark a lot of controversy on Twitter so we won't push it just yet um but he um I was gonna say that I've lost my train of thought so yeah so from from his presentation what on Twitter there's only like a few screenshots of his slides um it was the upgrade I was going to talk about that yes yeah I'll come on to that yeah so on one of his slides he mentions that in order for this to work it requires what they call bip 118 bit 118 which is called any pre-val um which is like a Improvement Pro proposal on bitcoin that's not yet in so it needs soft forking in um what bit are we on when you've got an idea you pick a number and go with it essentially because it's open source it's up to the community down to decide this is good put it in yeah um otherwise it just gets left and forgotten about but then it's took a number which is then not in sequence so basically in order for this idea to be feasible and possible it needs bit 118 in in Bitcoin base layer or there was another one wasn't there oh yeah it can also be using bit 119 and a few others yeah was that 19 Jeremy Ruben yes bit 119 as Jeremy Rubens Covenant stuff yeah which was very controversial at the time he was trying to push this through a couple of months back um but that was controversial more so because it was more of a here's a solution to what he's got but rather than it's it's one solution and nobody's took the time to look at is there an alternative solution that does the same thing as he's wanting to do but in a better mechanism better way so they wanted Alternatives so you could like weigh the pros and cons to each one to then say that's the best one let's go with that one so he was trying to push it live and push it in and force it in without having Alternatives and comparisons um so I think people were saying it's not worth the risk to include it for what it actually does because it didn't people didn't think had a big enough benefit to do um and there could be potential alternative that nobody's looked at yet so there is already two solutions there that are waiting to be trying to be pushed through so if they can be pushed through one of them can although Jeremy Ruben's was that soft that was a soft Fork as well I think so yeah and the 118 then is yeah 118 is was written by Christine Decker Anthony towns any preview which essentially is a new type of public key that um that allows signatures to be used but on directly spending a certain utxo so I was a bit techy so it uses that in some way there hasn't been any detail on barack's thing yet so kind of looking forward to how he alleviates all the lightning issues with liquidity and that kind of thing yeah I'll be impressed it sounds like a completely different kind of Network slash system Concepts yeah the way it works so when is he actually gonna announce it publicly no idea well I think so this it was a Bitcoin plus plus event which is like like the company organizing it which I think is Nifty nice comedy um how was it yeah I didn't know that I think it's just like a meet-up talk where everyone get presentations it was supposed to be live stream so I clicked on the live stream to watch this presentation it's two minutes long so I don't think they worked out alive didn't quite get ready yeah so I'm open soon because I think everyone there's a few people quite interested in Reading what what he has to say this is coincidental not coincidence oh it's coincidental time and obviously the microstrategy isn't like a lightning conferences and sort of thing and obviously we've got Miami and everything is becoming a lightning Focus these days with things um so if somebody pops up with a alternative solution to lightning um that is better uh in all different ways as well it's not even just bearing one way it's he is saying it solves every single problem pretty much we have to take his word for it in a minute and so or we don't we can hold that yeah until we can verify once he's released the detail of it and how it works and then maybe we can delve into it what's a bunch of controversial thought then I won't say mine or I don't know the controversial thought I was gonna it's I'll write mine down and then you can say it right what you're gonna say mine is just um the fact that how heavily a lot of VC is yours VC based no it wasn't okay that's good that'd be different uh what do you think how heavy the VCS are invested in lightning um they'll push for they'll push back against this because of that which I thought was an interesting process I think it is and I think that in itself is then Blockbuster style yeah okay because you are not moving with the developments that are better that are genuinely technically better if it is we don't know yet but if let's pretend it's kind of like Blockbuster but at the Forefront of innovation yeah well it's like is it beta Max and uh VHS like they were at the Forefront of it and one was better but actually VHS got pushed through because being Max it was the marketing thing yeah it's all lightning could so that's what the VCS would push yeah yeah that's the worry we've put all our money and effort into time into this we need to mail we're sticking with it yeah um however the infrastructure in itself um it that's been built out so when we're making lightning transactions if we can then just plug in to say make these transactions instead of whatever this system is called in the end um we could then plug and play with our customer base they would just be transaction on a layer two and they don't necessarily need to know um and it could go over lightning or it could go with this one eventually it'll phase out the one that's that's not the as beneficial as popular um now my other thought process on that is uh Ellen URL so that's the controversial I think because Ellen URL um and lightning addresses and things like that yeah they are just a protocol to communicate with two servers let's say that can communicate with each other and then as they're communicating they're passing over the information to make the payment so they could actually pass over we've said this before in the past they could pass over a Bitcoin address they don't have to pass over a lightning invoice they could pass over an ethereum address which was probably one and then you can make an ethereum transaction so they could pass over Bank details yeah so you can pass over anything The Ellen URL piece is just a communication protocol that's been agreed within the lightning community and that's how you pass the information back and forwards and say I want an invoice for this amount of SATs and they then give you an invoice for this matter and then you pay that invoice for so it's all automatically happens in the background so if a new protocol comes out that is better than lightning if we have L on URL and the lightning addresses and things like that as a concept sat on top then you can easily in the background just plug in the new Layer Two rather than and using lightning or you could use both so you could say I want a lightning invoice or I want a tbdxx invoice which is better to catchy that name um so you could do either one of them um but from a ux front-facing perspective the customer just uses their Zack at coin corner.io or Joe at coin corner.io for Jonah come over um so you would then it wouldn't change the ux like the experience for the customer and it wouldn't change really our external system as such uh and the external ux you're used to it would just in the background be using a slightly different protocol um now that I'm saying is controversial because what that does is it shows that future upgrades like if this happens so there's been a lot of back or there's been a lot of controversial not backlash controversial Conversation Over Ellen URL and core lightning it's probably been more of the driver of Anthony and a certain crowd that one all of these so let's call it um which ones have we got so repeat payments and things like that recurring payments for example we can build that into well in url and we've been able to do all these things with Ellen URL but core lightning I've been trying to push through bolt 12 which will then have um not recurring repeat payments so it's one invoice that you can pay over and over again like a lightning address for example um so they want that bill on the protocol itself on the core protocol itself so it can be that then like a peer-to-peering rather than having to go through a web server whereas Ellen URL goes over a web server and it abstracts the um the logic should we call it and allows for the underlying layer to just do the payments whereas the communication goes through the the above servers whereas core and what they're trying to do about 12 is trying to have that logic layer on the payment protocol on Lightning itself so if we all went to that particular thing and you had lightning it set all of these mechanisms were on Lightning itself like with bolt 12 then if something comes along and beats lightning then you can't as easily abstract like migrate over to be using the new layer too as you would because you'd have built everything to be within this protocol this Foundation layer yeah so in that respect lnurl beats out not 12 in my head for future proofing and ease of use of moving across it there's lots of loose documents there's going to be lots of arguments to that of how that works and for example people could say well yeah Ellen URL kind of you need the web server and you need things that then make it more custodial and drives you towards custodial which in some ways it does um whereas with the core everything's a bit more not because you have the option to be more non-custodial in an easier manner but then for future proofing of developments like this new layer 2 that could come out pole 12 is is a very negative in that respect that's interesting yeah and just on the custodial non-custodial I don't know how technically they work properly yet but you could even look at something like slash tags as similar which is cinnamon John Carval is working on which I think they can be used in a non-custerial way of like an aggregation of payment methods yes it's the same as Ellen URL they could pivot yeah just add it to your slash tag or add it to Ellen URL yeah that's cool so yeah I think there's definitely a horrible name why not it just doesn't sound nice is it oh just give me a slash dog um so yeah definitely for food for thought there and keep an eye on we'll come back to that when he does announce and give us some detail that's cool so is it just him working on it or is anyone else involved no idea I think it's just him just him um yeah I'm sure um people probably get more people involved when he releases the information cool but I've just done it as well I was gonna say before even though he's promising all these things I think it'll still come with issues and scaling issues and that even the one I've seen already is they talk about you you know doesn't need to be online where it's online and it does but then there's even a caveat on that which I read that it has to come online at least once every two weeks so it's like it's not all perfect um so that'll have it coming online once every two weeks is better yeah being online yeah from security perspective yeah it's a resource perspective so it's quite it's still an improvement and yeah if it if it does solve all these sort of issues inbound outbound liquidity issues and the Athens to create channels if it solves all that and then the two-week thing you have to just come online once every two weeks yeah it's infinitely better oh yeah yeah online yeah it's just important to note because then if you think something doesn't need to go online you can start thinking oh you know I can put a node anywhere essentially if it needs to come online every two weeks you can actually handle that yeah yeah but my new points are important what we've got but then actually this is what you're saying about that then if we end up moving to this new layer too away from lightning and end up on the new one and then you had to come online every two weeks then someone comes along and says actually there's new problems here there's you block one two weeks they'll try and fix that and the building on top of the what's already there over and over again and so you just keep improving on what's there um so yeah let's wait and see see what he said something intrigued um which I should probably carry out RSL or like at least highlight ourselves what I'm talking about there in terms of you know this new layer too and it could um could follow lightning as um and could not destroy lightning but uh take over lightning in terms of the favored layer too um that's not a bad thing against lightning at all this is just the evolution of technology and it would make sense for anyone that's using lightning to move to a it's like an upgrade to a piece of software isn't it you just move to the new thing but that's where I'm talking about the ux on the front end doesn't change for the customer another nail and URL starts to allow for that and it's quite a benefit um but we as a company in Bitcoin as an industry will just move to the best um the best options I hope isn't that kind of like what happened with is it hashcash before Bitcoin and Bitcoin came along and fixed the issues the hashcash was that yeah are you used to ask cash methodologies and Technology to leveled up yeah yeah it keeps handled up evolves like in Pokemon evolved now you're talking stuff I understand uh Bitcoin hash rate jumping from 288 X Ashes to 450 in six days um I assume did you look into this no I did it's like it's a bit of a misleading headline I was going to assume it was linked to the mempool backlog which was great in fees which meant it was more beneficial to mine yeah okay I did see the spike yeah it spiked massively it's now back at just over 300. right um so it was probably uh I think yeah a few people accidental yeah coincidental of like how these websites do their calculations if there's a bunch of blocks in quick succession over a day it can look like the hash rate goes massively up yeah so I think I think more miners probably did come on boys like not as drastic as it looks so it could have been a combination of new miners coming on because of the backlog and more fees to be mopped up and it's just a coincidental yeah burst of just drop right back down to 312 I think I've got all right 360. so it's okay so there's a slight increase yeah yeah good yeah the difference between our news were the increasing no this 450 makes news 316 yeah yeah headline I bet there was no detail in that news article on it as well probably not um but yeah that ties in nicely with the brc20 tokens the mem so the mempool will just touching on that yeah the mempool what we're touching on there the transaction backlog um that was its highest ever it was like 320 000 I think last night um which is big back in 2017 when you first joined Ozark wasn't it okay we had the absolute chaos trying to deal with the industry that time uh the backlogs were like consistently high for months on end and we were paying ten dollars a transaction maybe and sometimes more um and we just couldn't keep up with the backlogs I guess our system wasn't built in the the way to handle that just at the time it was still early I read a um slight tangent I read a really good analogy for the mentor the other day cool so the mempool is for those that don't know a bunch of unconfirmed transactions waiting to go into a block so the way to conceptualize it is a line at a restaurant that's ordered by the people that are willing to pay the most and the restaurant is the block that's very cool actually I thought it was quite cool yeah is there a scenario we need to work on a restaurant analogy like the airport okay is there a real world scenario where you would be at the front of the queue for pain it's like going to a a concert maybe and you'd get like VIP tickets you're paying the most so you'd get in first and stuff could we do it in that scenario you fly easy chair and you've got Speedy buttons it all ties in the biggest analogy yeah we need to release it one book that's just the airport analogy for everything everything that All Leads off different directions but all tied to an airport yeah that works actually because then yeah yeah you're welcome no see I know what I'm saying that's actually perfect because that actually goes on to I mean probably can't use EasyJet and speeding boarding there's probably some trademarks we'll use it um but that because then that does tie in nicely because we are saying that each plane is uh more in the lightning capacity carrying over with the SATs isn't it um whereas now we're talking about them almost carrying them being transactions each individual passenger being a transaction and the plane is a block effectively um maybe we have to do like the the plane is a block no then it's kind of for across but it's a good analogy that though yeah maybe the on-chain stuff is on ground so like delivery companies delivering parcels and the plane is the layer too it's in the sky we'll figure it out well I've got ideas but I think analogies are important simple analogies are important for the men pull is quite a weird concept if you're a non-techie to kind of understand yeah and you see it thrown everywhere in this industry or yeah so just have these little things in your head that oh it's just like this it's like it does help it doesn't make a lot of sense when you do put a good analogy to something that's good because Janet has asked me to explain the stuff we were talking about in the chat last night so I'll go out and hit with the restaurant analogy imagine you're in a restaurant yeah um so it's terrible to read back through the lightning the airport in origin you can figure out um she said she's gonna start listening to this as well so best stop slagging her off [Laughter] um so yeah hi man pool blah blah so what we think is created or what has created the backlog in the mempool is bitcoin's BRC 20 tokens so if people are not this has gone a bit under the radar if you're not in the industry you can have no clue um if you are you still I still don't really have a clue in the industry it's been quietly pushed through um but this last couple of weeks has started to ramp up I think um so the brc20 so like on ethereum you have erc20 they call it tokens um so that's like most of the [ __ ] coins out there are erc20 tokens or TRC for Tron and stuff like that um so this is brc20 which is in theory allows you to then build [ __ ] coins on bitcoin and everything else on bitcoin why would you want to do that um I think the the best answer to that give me an analogy David David Bayless is like it's just for gambling it's very open yeah it's just gambling basically um because then people can put [ __ ] coins on and [ __ ] coins are just for for gambling generally um so it's controversial massively because yeah there's a lot of people that don't want them on there because it's going to fill up block space that should be used for what people say for other things this is what it ordinals us they are on those basically but they're just called brc20 tokens we've just rebranded well it's because everybody is aware of what an erc20 token is so calling it brc20 just shows it's look it's an equivalent Bond Bitcoin now so you don't need ethereum now to put your [ __ ] coins on you can put them on bitcoin which is a stronger more trusted foundation and base layer um so will I guess the wait and see thing is will people build um easily is like migrators and converters that'll move your erc20 token onto brc20 with ease like with a couple of clicks and will about them become a thing and will people start migrating away from having these on [ __ ] coins on [ __ ] coins and moving them on to bitcoin um which it's an open market people can do so you can't stop them that's what that's the benefit and it's the great thing and the bad thing of Bitcoin you can't prevent people doing what they want to do on there um stable coins would be we already spoke this is what we spoke about with the ordinals originally from The Original ordinals Episode I think if you went back to that we're talking about stable coins using ordinals and saying actually yeah that that could work and we're trying to figure out how that would work this will basically make that work I think um so you'll have stable coins I don't think anyone's issued one yet as far as I'm aware um yeah I'm not sure I don't think so I don't have tether will eventually issue one on it uh and see maybe um but yeah that's great the backlog so the 320 000 transactions I think like 290 000 of them or something or ordinals and um so yeah uh it's massively controversial some people love it some people hate it um oh you're just gonna end up with loads of [ __ ] coins coming up to bitcoin um and taking up block space and uh at the detriment so then the growth in Bitcoin as a payment as money um I'm not sure where I see it yet either to be honest I'd like someone to do kind of an analysis of they can we kind of know the volume that is on stable coins on other networks if you took all that applied it to the Bitcoin Network yeah how much block space how much block space would it be that'd be an interesting research because the whole thing the brc20 token so that's on chain basically similar to ethereums and you have to do like a on-chain transaction to do the rc20 token transactions in some capacity whereas lightning um with um for what it's called tarot uh lightning with tarot and RGB and things like that where their developments they're trying to create the effects of brc20 tokens on lightning and on RGB so it's kind of it's abstracted away from the base layer so you're not using on chain transactions and bloating the um the mental the backlogger transactions so um that's like a scalable way to do it whereas this is not necessarily scalable in my it's basically understand they're building that for the same reason lightning itself was built for Bitcoin yeah in order to abstract it away from the on-chain so that would be the right way to build you can put your [ __ ] points down on lightning and then it's mostly if you know what the F4 or against it people can undo that and then it moves the footprint away from the base layer yeah and it'll keep transaction fees uh lower than what they currently are the minute um but then there's also there's so many arguments there's so many people coming from different angles on this and the different arguments there's either one of the miners so there's been conversations over the last six to 12 months or so same uh Bitcoins mining fees over the coming decades to come is going to be too low for Bitcoin to have enough miners to maintain and secure the network um so actually this solves that problem um uh pure accidental or whatever you want to call it because all of a sudden the backlog is Big which means the transaction fees are higher which means more people are paying higher fees which means the miners can then mop up their fees and earn more money so then more miners come onto the network and more hash rate is there which then in theory secures the network a higher uh capacity um so yeah I don't there's so many arguments right now isn't it uh yeah um so yeah lightning using lightning now is it shows the power of what it was built for yeah um I don't I don't really have much of an opinion on the brc20 tokens at the minute I think we're just gonna have to sit back I'm not really interested in doing anything with them um stable coins may be useful or will will be useful I think that's not even maybe they will be useful um on bitcoin because if you could use them on bitcoin like you can tether on ethereum and it's much easier to use for people that would be far far better and more useful because people at the end they know we may not like stable coins so some people might not but the reality is they are used in you know El Salvador places that don't have a local stable currency um they are heavily used and cross-border payments they are used so um you can't deny the use case for them really no I saw a few interest in just talking about like it just in general a high fee market and people just a lot of people say no line is built for this which it is well I think it was hampus I don't know if you saw this I think so I was talking about how actually there's like one downside to lightning in a high fee environment is um if I've got a small lightning node with say just twenty dollars of my own money in with the channel open as soon as the fees overtake that twenty dollars I can't then actually close mine close my channel commit it or back onto chain no so there is it's not Lightning's not perfect in this scenario in that scenario that you would send that lightning transaction you whatever click on it you'd have you just send somewhere else that can batch clothes or yeah yeah yeah to an exchange or something and cash out or whatever way you would find it there is alternative ways around that yeah yeah but even if like your channel partner disputed then you essentially just both lose the money because it all gets taken up in on chain fees um very minute amounts we're talking about but it's interesting yeah it would be a um yeah that's why I guess small channels are not the the best I mean our Channel sizes are much bigger than twenty dollars obviously um but we are custodial no yeah custodial so the non-custodial individuals yeah because everyone always says only keep in your lightning wallet what you would keep in your in your normal wallet so you are dealing with lower amounts so it kills it for the the likes of some of the African countries and South American stuff where they are um in the poorer country should we say that where yes they want to transact Bitcoin or transacts on Lightning if they want to be non-custodial way it will be too expensive for them so it'll start to kill it so that's where you need I think though that will be that issue will be solved in some respects once we've got the the new um the upgrades to lightening that potential events yeah yeah yeah the Super Submarine swaps whatever they're called um that will allow for um non-on-train transactions yeah to create liquidity and so on um and it could also be solved with uh Barracks later too so yeah TBD TBD to be determined yeah um well there's literally a company called TBD which is blockchain yeah yeah not confusing yeah cool um that's it we've got coin Court we've got coin corn Corner News I asked you this before he said you couldn't be asked to talk about it so so now let's wait for David yeah because he's more passionate about the modern expert yeah yeah um but yeah there's probably not too much on that I don't think um I don't know what else we've got going on we're just cracking on aren't we yeah just heads down busy busy in the backgrounds up new jobs talk about new jobs last time three jobs up at the minute yeah compliance customer support and Tech yeah um any news Mikey what'd you do the weekend Quiet One relatively um new office is coming along nicely new office slowly slowly getting there may or may not get a slide yeah we'll see I tweeted it out I'm tweeted into existence um yeah unfortunately there's not a whole lot at the minute I think it there is this is this time of buildings yeah this is the hype Cycles period where you are just you head down you've got stuff to do your building but regulation as well is a big one at the minute and the squeezing everywhere of that and having to deal with that at the minute um that's quite a headache I think and quite time consuming um so yeah it's building pushing new products out new things that are to come cracking on not really much else I can say take our silence is a good thing yeah watching from the distance is the banking crisis working uh unfolds in the US um yeah all good not going to be unfortunate any conferences to see anybody in the next this month next month or two um probably our next conference will be up I don't even know if we'll get there October because the other September ones move doesn't it so it'll be October Maybe [Music] next time next year see you then cheers thank you peace [Music] thank you [Music]