Biden's 30% Bitcoin Mining Tax | Britcoiners by CoinCorner #120

Join Danny, Molly, Zakk and Dave for industry-led opinions on important Bitcoin stories from the week. Topics this week include: Bitcoin price, Bitcoin on the BBC again, Biden administration proposing 30% tax on mining electricity, VanEck removes ETF fees, Coinbase to offer $1B of convertible senior notes, Tim Draper on El Salvador, Bitcoin MENA 2024 announced, School kids visit CoinCorner, Dear Dave, and a Bitcoin Bottle Announcement. Britcoiners is a Bitcoin podcast by CoinCorner ( - a global leader in Bitcoin and Lightning services. #coincorner #britcoiners #bitcoin #bitcoinpodcast #bitcoinnews

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I think they'll soon realize how mobile the mining industry can be just at China know just they'll all just up and [Music] leave right brick CL is episode 120 whoop whoop whoop I'm with you love follow you anywhere Molly whoop I was trying to stay quiet so we could just get through the agenda sorry I'm just trying to Hype people we're whooping it m 120 120 episodes 120 we have done 120 to this show isn't that crazy y all right uh welcome back yeah uh like And subscribe and on with the show I like to keep that bit short and sweet right uh we'll come back to the Bitcoin price because it's not written down here agenda uh BBC News there was an update to last week's podcast um Biden Administration they're proposing tax on uh Bitcoin mining van neck eliminating fees on their ATF um coinbase offering a billion dollars of convertible notes uh it says time Draper Tim Tim Draper Tim Draper uh he said the Elsa would all be able to pay off the IMF if Bitcoin hits 100K uh Bitcoin Mina 2024 has been announced Williston school kids visit coin Corner whoop and then an announcement at the end little baby whoop for that one was quite cute wasn't it the future of Bitcoin the future of generation cool man right Bitcoin price I don't know what it is because it's not written down here so I'm hoping for a live going to go for 68 300 oh yeah yeah down a bance what price was it last episode can I 69666 yeah just under seven okay so pretty much where we were almost but we did go in the meantime to between all 73 and a half I think it was um yeah but we've also been down L when we 66 just coup days the roller coaster that we live on um feel like Mike's panicking load of a lot of clicking going on yeah it was a false start to the Podge we're getting there now though come on but that's that's not bad price considering everything um they did anybody look at some of the potential reasons to the price drops no you see the think i' Shar about the bitf next Whale doing his Longs taking profits squeezing the price down and you could see on the chart the dip every time he CL positions um so there was definitely some of that by looks of it uh there was also I saw about um it's not in here um on the list of the agenda but there was a hedge fund apparently um which I don't know how true it is because I need I need to have a look at that properly and no one's named the hedge fund yet but the hedge fund was short in micro strategy but buying Bitcoin which I'm very confused that because that would go in tandem I'm not what they were trying to achieve there and apparently they got squeezed and it was about a billion dollars worth of bitcoin that they had to then I don't know if they had to sell to position or what happened there but apparently some of that downward pressure over the weekend was meant to have being that and them in trouble um whoever that hedge fund is so it was like a is that is that why everybody on Twitter was talking about not buying micro strategy there was a whole thing over the weekend I don't know I didn't see that don't know no so these guys were shorten micro strategy I think so it would have been better for the community to buy that and force the price up to squeeze them out cuz they were shorten it a bit D doesn't it cuz like a normal hedge you would kind of that it's they're too closely related it's just like it's like hedging by buying and by longing and shorting Bitcoin which is silly yes I'm not sure what they must have thought though that mro strategy price has gone up so high that it doesn't correlate enough with the Bitcoin movement where because they don't own enough what's their valuation now is it like 20 odd billion is it something like that now I know quite High whereas they only hold like six or seven billions worth of bitcoin so they thinking the gap between the Bitcoin they hold and the valuation of the company is to bigger Gap so it should squeeze down so maybe there's something in there that they thought is he fundamentally changing what micro strategy cor businesses because is he what's because he's calling a Bitcoin like a development infrastructure development company now isn't he they've always just been like a analytics software company they've just built analytics software haven't they M but is their focus now completely away from that are they still no that must be their bread and butter right and then there is focus on like the lightning tooling and stuff like that we haven't seen too much of that yet but if you were working there imagine how good you'd be if you were on like the bread and butter team and the other there was like another team that was doing cool Bitcoin stuff M like you just be like oh yeah I don't I I don't know what's going on to be honest interesting don't um all right moving on anyway that's enough about price okay sorry that's good I I think the price pulled on it's just D not I did hear that back this week sorry but like okay all right right BBC News update Anno BBC News yes we've got another clip the comments on your reaction videos last week were hilarious you can't this haven't seen have they been in contact yet oh yeah have they been in contact have you have you passed on your details to them well public pass details there's the journalist on here in a second which you'll see he's active on Twitter definitely got a like contact us oh yeah of course yeah but B that's that's not how you got all the people complain about pay their licensing fee you just join that que we're working on it working progress okay um but the guy in this one is active on socials can we make it I don't think he'll be in on the BBC in the next year 12 months 12 you got 12 months too on the 12 month well def fine on the BBC like BBC News we've been in the BBC already no sorry on BBC new I'll give you news 24 new4 I've been on yeah I've been on BBC World News before no on BBC News 24 UK version yeah that was UK version BBC World News you've been on it yeah I've been on can I see that clip oh it's great it's the one with uh what's it called Stig uh Stig thingy The Economist it was like meant to be a debate between the two of us okay um was there a video of you uh no it was just sound in the end and it was between me and him but it ended up being the journalist that ask us questions but kept us separate did he win no he was embarrassed himself didn't he unfortunately for him trying to remember we I didn't get to hear what he said so I didn't get to debate him in that separately and then cut together like a debate yeah which yeah it was very odd the way they did it it wasd um it did come off still though quite good for Co rather than him which was quite good um Joseph did you do years ago 2018 19 was that maybe right I don't know that if I can find it I'll put it in the description we've got a record of it somewhere um I'd love to hear back what it says cuz I can't remember yeah um but yeah it was it was done but how how did they contact you for that um that was VI rpr agency at time oh okay it was um no invite back though so no yeah what does that tell you they don't lie the truth see these clips he probably did well he's a famous World Economist is like he's meant is is he he's pretty famous he's not Nobel Prize one he's like some very I know yeah just Google him I come his name now I think it was Joseph wasn't it Joseph Joseph stiglet stiglet or probably butchering it to be fair yeah watch this not return that's the one American Economist guy okay uh yeah recipient of a Nobel Prize economic science well there you go how does it feel to be talking to a Noel Prize winner talk to I just abused him in a weird debate which um is 81 now right come on Old Man buling owned by a guy in the in his late 70s well if you listen back to we'll listen back to it next week actually that'll be good oh yeah let's for re even yeah so what's this this was a followup wasn't it it was it kind of yeah I'm not really sure this was just another segment it was only two and a half minutes but it was again they brought on another Bitcoin Economist expert um and they had the joural which went to a cafe in London to pay with Bitcoin um so there's nothing really to to go back up because you us point of sale uh no he didn't you didn't show him doing anything sat there eating a burger you see a minutes sorry I'm let's have a look here was one of our Merchants the value of the cryptocurrency Bitcoin raced to an all-time high today the new price is above $72,000 earlier this year us Regulators made it easier for investors to trade the currency which has helped fuel the record-breaking run and now the UK's Financial Watchdog says it will loosen some of the rules too here's Joe tidy for the last two years lines charting the value of Bitcoin have mostly been in One Direction but in the last few weeks it's all changed almost hourly now this virtual currency is hitting new all-time highs the reason well it's mostly down to this place in January Traders from us investment Giants were given the green light by us Watchdogs to start selling products linked directly to bitcoin as a result they've spent billions buying up coins further stoking the fire today UK Financial author ities say they too are open to allowing some trading based on crypto assets some are now wondering just how far this virtual currency can go some people think that the potential of Bitcoin is to replace all other currencies and there are shops and restaurants like this one in London that accept Bitcoin I just B this7 Burger for example which was 0.9 Bitcoin but the way prices are going now who knows what it' be worth tomorrow I don't think we're going to see Bitcoin becoming Tri pause there before we come on to Francis oh is this where it all kicks I mean why are they not saying ETFs why are they all dancing around the word is it is it just a term that maybe they don't want they simplified it yeah is that why they simplified the mainstream probably don't understand maybe um again it was like crypto it was like oh what's the price going to be tomorrow he's like speculate it's like trying to again like the it's is it's almost like a mocking tone yeah yeah it is some even the main reporter there it's just like it's just a toy or a placing for people that don't are educated or don't understand that's the tone I get it's almost like they have me but they're not taking it serious especially when he opens up with the it's only been headed One Way indicating it's been going down all this time until recently so again it's like at least they've got some they've learned a little bit from the last one in terms of explaining what an ETF is and showing that's why the price is moving Etc but then the whole when they come to the Burger thing it was just again a bit you know crypto price specul moves a lot weird weird angles it also doesn't relate to kind of talk about what they're reporting on right it's talking about investment ETF style and the UK being open to that not actually paying for a burger with it and then they're going doesn't actually thing yeah car onh that b a place that was cooler a genuine currency what I think we're seeing it become is a recognized and potentially widely used investment asset people buying it to um save for the longer term and to benefit from the price Rises Bitcoin was created by an is that her was that her bit that was it that yeah who is she like it said financial analyst is she the lady with the pizza is she the pizza lady I can't remember if that was that's who you said it was to me just Google that and just just validate that before we go any further she is on my she's on my estate list I recognize her name is she yeah I never reached out to her but she was I believe the Bitcoin Pizza no no it wasn't it was definitely Francis something saman just Google France Google her name Bitcoin we'll find that imagine being the Bitcoin Pizza lady and you being the top search uh you have to get a surname as well capalo so what was it who's the Bitcoin Pizza lady what did she do she didn't she was basically saying Bitcoin can be infinitely divided it was that div yeah I remember that um that was funny right okay so so she's so she's she's written for coin coin desk this lady there you go she's legit then is she written in a positive or A a negative way yeah my thing with her it wasn't even like watching her do that it was kind of like okay great but what she actually said was can I what annoys me what Anno me right is no one ever brings this up and they should there's I think in the Sailor Academy and lots of other literature there is the history of like money and how it performs and then you might want to get a chat Mikey but it literally says as as a currency progresses it starts off as like a a store of value and then migrates into medium exchanges of the money the Lindy effect yeah I think is it called that no no Lindy effects longer something the longer survives oh no not that one L effect one's got five stages of currency and it starts the stores value then moves to medium exchange no that's that's not the L effect but I think someone tried to tie them together to show that but the effect is on technology of how long something right but anyway that's my point I don't know what that chats called out to Mike but that's the one I'm after um because no one ever references it if it's a great store of value and Bitcoin can be used as a extremely good medium of exchange with the light Network then that makes it a good solid strong currency and yet people just say oh it's been used as a you know a store of value by speculators for actually if if this chart every currency starts always we yeah essentially mhm and then people should be made aware of the fact that's just the start that's how they all start out do it's but no one mentions it speculation I'd like to see that on the BBC should WR in ask them to where is this CH there is with the knocks around on Twitter all the time see I've seen it millions of times just so disappointed Mikey can't find it instantly point just such an off day guy yeah I don't think it really hasn't named is it it's just the evolution of I just put the evolution of um money would it be I think people might be watching the shouting at saying this this just going to show us like the baring to Gold back to Francis evolution of find this chat M I'm going to take that hammer off you no this the point of this Hammer is to keep you on track we're well off track now we are throwing the image when he sees it that's not great list everyone knows the chart I'm talking about she's referencing the chart basically but doesn't tell you what the next steps of it are we did find this thing the other week M mean you and hry looking for it won't we and yeah CU it's in the presentation that we've been working on no yeah I think we had that conversation I was saying yeah it's not um it's just under wrong but when do you often see on the BBC News them talking about history and that kind of thing it's very much but yeah don't go too much in depth right well yeah we're talking about the same organization that won't say ETF cuz it's too complex and that and and my expectation is then to start talking about graphical history of how money evolves so yeah you might be right I'm asking too much but it's still annoying my only thing with that was they had a 2 and a half minute segment the BBC there and they put the financial analyst expert on for was it not even 5 Seconds it was like a 5sec slot um where most of it is about 25 seconds yeah so it's like a such short thing and she didn't really say much to be fair pretty V which in all fairness if you want at that time she probably spent you know an hour doing an interview and just took that tiny little piece and pieced it in and but that tiny little piece piecing it in there's literally zero education in what she said there that's just an opinion but how it's what it is isn't it in terms of what this news Outlet's trying to produce it's a sort of snippet on a and then if they just put on a Bitcoin animation at the end what's this it's so what is bitcoin I think I mean it's m it's infinitely better than the last us article that we we watch oh yeah yeah but it's still like maybe we're can we oh sorry you sending an email all without needing any financial institutions Bitcoin transactions are processed by a huge network of volunteers who use computers to check transactions as a reward they're automatically given new coins well they right now the demand for those coins seems to be higher than ever and many Bitcoin fans are celebrating their new found riches others though are wondering with caution which way the notoriously unpredictable line will go next Joe tidy BBC News so I think the imagery there of physical coins is always confusing right like the only key that's not on this keyboard is the mute key oh my yeah the physical imagery of act physical coins I think is definitely confusing to people I don't know why continue using it but because you've got to like you got to show something this is my frustration sometimes where they like they saying there they're not saying the word ETF to try and simplify it for the end user but then they're complicating it throwing in things that you had a guy holding one there doesn't exist yeah so you're just confusing M that that animation summary was I mean I'm pretty happy with that the animation was good I would I would then throw in the 200 day moving average of the price and then maybe say that actually over a long enough time Horizon it's no there's no volatility that's I don't think the BBC is the right place to educate and do it that way it's it's almost just the high level message that needs to get out there and then people need to go off and and learn a little bit gu some El but that high level message needs to be slowly improved on and could be better and I think it needs to come from people like genuine experts within what's going on there not like the people no offense to them but like the people that they're getting on are not really experts no in any way um maybe they're just available at 6:00 in the morning well that's 100% it they once got a guy that came in for an interview on the BBC News and and they had him as an expert and they accidentally put him on the television get that clip M cuz that cuz he's just digress but it's funny next the got lot to get through still oh come on I know okay we'll see if M can find it that's the guy he's got it now he's P I think I've seen this there's like a moment of panic where he realizes he's wrong but then he just BS It Go heed the eyes of Spotify streaming you know before it even happened he he's like yes people want to dream Yeah so basically that's the quality of you know that's the vetting process is that they accidentally got that anyway we need better we need better right moving on uh the Biden Administration is proposing a 30% tax on electricity used by Bitcoin minus yeah this is just crazy this is not good I don't get that I don't get why they would would propose this on what the oh well I do know why they to get more money in taxes but um an industry that's absolutely booming right now in in the US m is Bitcoin mining and they are just trying to disrupt it in every way possible um it feels weird does it feel like an attempt to kill it or attempted like yeah just raise more funds from somewhere to it's got to be kill it cuz I can't imagine a mining is going to stay for 30% worth they we're going to charge them the tax on miners that produce their own electricity so even if you're not using the grid grids it's it's not an energy thing like they could have literally said oh it's you know almost put it under energy usage ESG bull but it's a regulated cost almost isn't it what they're trying to do but it's a it's a cost burden when you can just go to a country that's not going to charge them that and I think they'll soon realize how mobile the mining industry can be look at China just they'll all just up and leave three years ago was it that there's literally a graph to show you what happened guys take a look Bitcoin does not need America you'll see it be very mobile I'm assuming it right now it's just a proposal right I'm assuming it won't get through but yeah lumus here was was saying that it would basically destroy any chance of America having a foothold in there yeah in the mining industry it's crazy I mean it's good for the rest of the world crack on but for a US citizen that's nuts is the us the biggest one now that everyone's come out of China um I can't remember to be honest it's one of the biggest yeah be that I think Canada's big isn't it China's still got a good full hold um yeah Kazakhstan was the one that was weirdly big that was a really big one really cheap uh energy there is that as what everyone was thinking Ethiopia some African countries are really going to huge growth in mining hash rate from those countries soon mobile man you okay I just don't think I don't one I don't think I think this is probably some sort of play for votes um from his demographic of people but may be worried about Bitcoin and all the change so they just say disincentivize it but it won't ever get put through can't imagine it will know no has to be a political play but it's annoying because it's a political player that throws a curve ball into the industry and indry players have to deal with that and me certainty in there doesn't it if you're mining operation you'll be second thoughts now about see a lot more of it in the upcoming year as well with the election and stuff so it's the time of the resources and everything you put we know that we feel that pain of when things like that happen they crop up and you've got to put time and resource into just even understanding it and seeing what's happening and what the impact of your business is and then you've got to push back against it and you got to talk to the right people it's it's chaos it's just not needed it's unnecessary political play and however I'm not a Bitcoin miner in the US so yeah but I wonder if well how much they're probably not are they really generating much income for the American economy these aren't highly staffed organizations not highly staffed they'll still have a lot of Staff dealing with hardware and stuff and yeah they do still have quite a bit whether if they've just weighed up the advantages of not having a Bitcoin industry versus the political gains in putting the suggestion like this across they won't even give a crap about the industry really they'll just be all about the political Gams what what random things can we throw into these agendas to make it look good to get more votes taking action on this point yeah that's literally all they're doing and it's [ __ ] over other people on other Industries in the meantime and they don't care cuz it's a political game to them I'm sure this happens in other Industries and we're just not aware of it and we just don't pay attention to it it will no doubt be happening we're just calling the crossair you got it Crossfire next we're going to have to ban that go next what we could have had a good debate about the free market there and dis only on the third topic so we got to move on I'm going to get a bigger Hammer just to take it off you guys when you start arguing between yourselves on this then I get overend Hammer van eliminates fees on their ETF under cutting Black Rock in the race to the bottom what have they gone two zero fees for how long uh the end of March all right yeah I next year yeah I think this is just all silly um it's not realistic for a long term um I assume they know like on someone's invested in ETF it's they must be pretty sticky right they're going to hold it for more than a year so you get free fees for the first year as three to five years is it the normal yeah holding period for that so it's just this China land grab isn't it this initial land grab of everyone yeah um you say unsustainable long term then what else have they got to incentivize people coming to them both than free fee really like it's all the same product yeah I guess the service doesn't really matter in this respect anyway cuz it's been out Out Source f with to MH um Financial houses that it and handle that side so yeah it's they are on a bit of a fe custodians probably all the same um the custodian is probably the only difference with two of them one has Fidelity use their own and one of them uses Gemini I think I don't know who that is um yeah but the rest of coinbase so yeah um and gray scale I guess we've got high fees and are what they are mhm wasn't there a graph another graph um but when they announced this didn't the inflows shoot up did I see that graph for this no so I I think people have SP I need I'd have to look back so maybe I'm wronger thought it came off the back of this but someone correct me um I think they they had an influx on the one day and then at the end of that day I think they announced these fee reductions right so I don't know if that was even related in any way whatsoever cuz it was quite a lot higher yeah it was yeah but I don't know if that was any relation at all or what we don't we're not quite sure that or I'm not quite sure I don't you'd have to look yeah someone will have to double check that but yeah people making out that oh they put the fees dead low and all of a sudden they get M SP and it's like I don't know if that was actually really what happened um but yeah the Feast of the race to the bottom I think is personally I think the same with the whole industry and stuff and I know a lot of other uh companies in exchanges Etc are trying to push and do that in some ways stupid absolutely stupid concept um they're playing a game of race to the bottom and go as low as you you can perceive to be look looking like you're doing good for the customer in reality you are forcing business models in a direction that for me wouldn't be as good of quality in the long run and it's kind of you're trying to grab as many land to grab as many customers as you can to eventually then you'll put your fees up to where is sustainable business model because it's not a business model that is sustainable can only do it because they a lot of these companies have VC back yeah you've got the cash to do it for a short period of time but eventually you've got to turn profitable so you're going to end up with a company there that has not created a business bus model that's sustainable that in 5 10 years time has to change the business model or has to increase the fees accordingly but you're going to squeeze everybody else out and then the it's actually worse for the public to do that because you're squeezing out competition that then there's less competition 10 years down the line and then because there's less competition them big players in the market can pretty much dictate the price and force what they want and then because they've built up a huge burn rate they have to increase the fees quite substantially yeah which is what you see other whereas it should be about quality of service right that should be where the focus is as well as fees being low obviously you'll get all the ridiculous thing oh well but our fees can be low and we'll have great quality service but reality says that doesn't happen in the real world um and you can try and say you can say as many words as you want but the proofs in the PD of actually how it happens um but yeah I think it's just a ridiculous concept to to do that people need to build a sustainable business model first um and then work out the the service around it and people will pay for the service if that's but they're not it's not going to centralize around one player is it there still be event the long term of this is Will basically just get a plateau of what is a reasonable fees uh well because they're not all going to sh each other out look how but they are that's exactly what they not I'm not about ETFs I'm about exchanges but the ETFs will you think you'll be left with a few and then they get to a plate of a few I imagine that's the same for the exchange but the exchange yeah but that's what you don't want well whether you want diversity of exchanges you want as many exchanges as possible yeah exactly which means you need to keep as many exchanges as possible running out there at the minute whereas other people that have got big Pockets right now are trying to race to zero and squeeze on fees to push other people out I don't think that's sustainable long enough to to make sure like there's to to then start showing other exchange it has that's what's happened we've seen that regulation squeezes and exchanges shot fees reduced out we were talking to somebody the other day who was a competitor in the UK and they were charging back in 2021 um massive percentages your fear is that over a long enough time horiz and un reggulator squeeze and fee squeeze you're left with very very few exchanges yes which then obviously reduces Innovation and obviously competition for um a he I guess I don't say good player but a um hopefully ethical and Bitcoin focused should we say player um whereas other ones will just do whatever makes them money be well be investor incentivized so like they have to make money for the that have bankrolling that project for all those years which is not necessarily the best thing for Bitcoin so I think it's it's a bit backwards trying to push and race force people out of the market at the minute when we're at this stage in in an industry MH um we need more companies we need more competition we need more Innovation we need more of that we don't want to be squeezing out competition right now yeah I mean it's a reg like Bitcoin itself if avoid the regulation side saying a long enough time Horizon the exchanges have to then put up their fees because they can't go free forever yeah but you could a Bitcoin exchange could just pop up because Bitcoin is accessible your problem is the regulatory moat that would have been created in that time yeah we already have seen the regulatory side of it is already squeezing and people with so many in the UK we've seen shut down over that time but actually to go and get a license now in one of these countries it costs a lot of money you probably to start a brand new exchange let's say in the UK for example you are going to have at least you need at least a million I would say at least um and that would be to cover building out your platform and your products everything getting all the partners in place that you need to for kyc compliance side and everything else around it and then actually getting the license and going through the application process a million and two years wor a Time start off from fresh um and already that you know going back five six years ago that wasn't the case but now it is and more than likely after those two years it's changed completely so you need another million yeah the mops substantially as well over the next couple years I think um so yeah what's the solution then um sorry Molly second we digress CU we're not even talking about the neck anymore we're on the Z talking about the UK landscape we're on about 0% race to the bottom in the fees which oh yeah okay bring it back silly um the solution I think is for companies to rather than trying to go and grab customers because your fees are lowest we've seen that in every other industry out there in the world you see that and you there's companies there's case studies on things like that where you can look and say uh a companies give reduced fees but they don't create loyal customers they create people that jump to insurance is a good one cuz everyone that's we was talking earlier Insurance everybody goes to the cheapest one and just moves on to the next one there's no loow there's no quality of product as such that dier me yeah no it's just but takech technology deflationary so like there more efficient people exchanges are becoming the fees could be reduced say that again so technology if you've read yeah yeah I got that right so technology breeds efficiency so the price could come down so as exchanges are getting more efficient prices could slowly come down anyway but they're not right now that's a different angle to go I guess but right now they're not the regulatory costs foring overheads increasing because of regulatory burden and actually infrastructure it's a brand new industry physical Hardware technology yes is decreasing over time um but I think it needs to be you create and you find rather than we're in an industry that's still a brand new industry there's a massive Market out there of people to go and grab and rather than trying to reduce your fees and steal from competitors go and find ways to educate and bring new people into the industry rather than trying to steal by reducing your fees so reducing your fees and stealing from other people is not increasing the size of the pie of the industry it's just keeping it smaller and then and then in theory squeezing out comp swimming against tied though cuz all business I'm trying to think of one example where they people haven't done that cuz it's in every industry it's a there there reduction land grab isn't it there competition and there is in certain IND certain businesses will reduce fees and do things in ways um because that's their strategy that's their tactical strategy however there's other Industries or there's even in the same industry a different one it's like Airlines is probably a good example one where you've got like your Emirates at the the top end which is more expensive and then you got your Ryan a which is like cheap as chips and you get a certain um target audience and the demographics between the two slightly differ um and there's you can cater for both but that's where like you end up with the niches and the different areas um but I don't think for me in this industry now I don't think there's we're still so early people always say about there's less than 1% of of the world that own Bitcoin then you've got 99% to go at why squee is this right now when you'd be better going out there and finding the new people to pull it these guys easier is it new people yeah it's it's an e easier to to steal people that are already already Bitcoin is already comped yeah it's more effort it's but it's like with anything people don't want to put in the hard work it's a short win for a long-term loss yeah the industry this whole industry is brand new industry it's a brand new piece of technology that is kind of doing things differently so yeah it's like you don't have to follow the same kind of um same kind of methods to running your company by by reducing the fees and stuff it's kind of like a different moral standing isn't it Bitcoin on how you see the world yeah it's just frustrating I think to see I think it'd be nicer to see real sustainable business models that then um can give in my head a better future for Bitcoin as a whole because you working tandem this is the longest sentence in the world I was going to wait until the end money okay there we go right uh coinbase offer a billion dollars of convertible senior notes due 2030 do you think that are they just buying Bitcoin with it like Michael sailor no I I would say not no buying [ __ ] coins what are their options don't know I've not seen what they've actually said they're doing with it have they done this before or not first time as far as General Corporate purposes oh so they need the money to repay debts yeah that doesn't sound good does it n it's just part of it it's all yeah public companies will do this stuff all the time but um it's it's a big big chunk I assume yeah they must have some sort of expansion plans yeah that's what I would I mean it's a great time to be raising to expanding whil the tensions on the market it's an easy way to raise a lot of money I guess mhm for a public company it's just not as it's not as bullish as home Bitcoin is micro strategies whether they're just buying Bitcoin imagine if they did that that message that they send it makes so much more sense for them to do that in my head because that message it sends that now all corporations are starting to put Bitcoin on the balance sheet at that level and that's a tactic does that mean others will follow and then ones that follow are likely to go to coinbase to do it so they would just grab a new batch of customers mhm um it says there they intend to use it to repay at maturity its own outstanding convertible scening notes during 2026 okay 28 so it's just to pay off his previous loan yeah oh it's like going to a loan sh load the oh well nothing exciting there yeah they should have bought Bitcoin yeah uh Tim Draper he said El Salvador will be able to pay most of the be able to pay off sorry the IMF if Bitcoin hits $100,000 uh he'll never have to talk to them again they'll probably be the most attractive country in the world to live um who's Tim Draper how do he know that it common knowledge's Tim Draper yeah Dave it's public info how much they owe right yeah yeah so he's just worked out from there it's a basic calculation I think should Tim dra is not involved with El Salvador in any way and and his I don't know if he's involved it's so his son is uh thingy Draper who's got what's the VC son is it Mark Draper uh no no um who where Tim Draper coming from why should I be listening to this guy Adam who helps with the why combinator is it he's started by combinator was it or the Draper VC solid bit of nepotism there then uh he's a billionaire guy thingy he's Tim Draper and he's been in the industry for a long time um he's been a big Bitcoin fan for I think it was one of the early investors in coinbase maybe um I think it was actually yeah he's a he's a big bitcoiner invested in coinbase big bitcoiner early days early days when they were Bitcoin only okay I iume Ela Ela are not going to do that anyway what pay off the IM yeah well they're not looking to sell it or they keep saying so they just keep saying they're buying hold and I don't know don't know where that goes they have moved it though recently to cold themselves custody and they've now G the public address as well which I don't think we've had before it's like 3,000 something Bitcoin in there right there's quite a lot in there 6,000 I think 6,000 5,000 yeah 5,000 I've seen a lot of people are donating to it again yeah again isn't it classic $400 million though of Bitcoin yeah on the balance sheet right not bad for country of six million people I'm pretty sure he dra saying get it sold and pay back the IMF I don't think he's saying that I think he's just making be they could do that if they wanted to ran the basic numbers to prove that they could be independent I think well they got put on like not the list but they were they were claims that Salvador won't be able to pay back the IMF to pay back these that's how it works yeah borrow more or maybe soon we could and I can't oh you I thought I realized I say that was delber that was deliberate all right cool right interested to see what they actually do then and moving on uh Bitcoin Mina 2024 has been announced world's biggest Bitcoin FR conference coming to Abby is it Bitcoin B Co only conference uh I don't know it's Bitcoin magazine isn't it I think probably not helped oh is it with the organizers one of the organizers guy that owns the big event company over there in Abu Dhabi um the ABS neck is it um so they've kind of teamed up to do it I think uh with Bitcoin magazine but that's cool that's good news isn't it good uh December it's going to be ocean will make our way there um MH and be there uh be yeah we had the first Bitcoin only one in is that February February yeah this year that we had there that was Bitcoin Oasis in Dubai um and now it seems to be there's a bit more traction now following which is is good mhm it's could be interesting to see how it plays out can't be they can't oh maybe not then that was was that [ __ ] coin is that the conference as well this us the same logo as it's just a as these guys how B shop that got down binance this isn't Bitcoin magazine looks for go down to the bot oh it might not be might say is it owned by somebody else this is just size yeah they'll do well that would have been interesting yeah I mean that's that's the same yeah it's as it's just a b graphic go to the homepage of this website Mike don't be Bitcoin magazine it's just a scrape pres yeah it's all sorts of yeah I don't think that's Bitcoin magazine related I hope not cool cool yeah about yeah that is a good domain purchase by that person by quick movement. net yeah is it there's big contrast between the meia territories adoption of Bitcoin and what they're doing against the states and Biden this bit of a contradiction isn't there they're talking about taxing Miners and meor territories of opening arms getting the regulation P sorted yeah well they want more people more they're trying to adopt the the industry where when other country is trying to turn its back on it or political plays I guess right uh willon school kids visited Quin Corner that was fun wasn't it I didn't speak to any of them them on just organized all through everybody under the bus so low impact they've set us up I kind of did didn't I so local Primary School reached out saying they're doing a but almost like inspiration week inspiration week so they get lots of employers on the AL of man to to reach out to show the kids what they do so we had a class come in who was interested yeah half of them wanted to work here yeah yeah there's a lot of that which was kind I love that guy's the guy at the back and his face just chilling it's like one of the mem ones it's like so H Henry gave a talk to me on um we could probably L the slides on here couldn't you but the little talk on bitcoin and just some high level stuff to the kids and then gave them all bul card and then they gave them the choice whether they could buy sweets didn't they and then those but a lot of them saved it apparently did they or they three or four of them said they were the back of the room they were say like they're going to keep it um but they knew some of the shops here accepted Bitcoin so they were going to keep it and then go to that at another time oh that's cool and but wait for the price to go up so then go I think I mean we've done this before with schools Local Schools I think it's a it's quite a cool thing to do especially in our industry to try and educate people a lot of kids don't get much of a monetary education or a financial education it was surprising how many of them knew about Bitcoin and what it was and that that that was what surprised me more than anything what percentage of them would you say like 90% or uh 50 I'd probably say like 50 60% probably knew knew knew Bitcoin maybe a smaller percentage actually knew a little bit more about what it is a lot of them I spoke to a couple of them where they they had said like they'd seen it on like their YouTube videos they watch the kids YouTube videos and stuff it gets mentioned in in them all the time one of them actually told me a video to go and watch that had it you knew the episode and everything the season in the episode for it research which um he clearly knew and remembered that so you gave him a little talk didn't you did you get any awkward questions um not really no no no actually surprisingly quite all right um quite an inspiring talk that you gave them oh thanks it did he get a recording of it no but it was no wasn't inspired might as well not happen then no picture no no all no about what was your three points I had three yeah three points so which it's more of a career thing than a Bitcoin thing so it's more meant to be B Just the three points of um do something you enjoy uh as a career um because it becomes a hobby and on job um you need team rounder so team work and and not you can't do it yourself and what was my third Point failure oh yeah failures are okay failures okay yeah so the kids back to school like oh it's okay to fail Danny said so handed in that spelling test or math test it's okay a fail d Scott said it exactly exactly no it was good we got them little um little goodie packs with Mount P Mount socks in um they'll fit them in a few years I don't know some of those quite big yeah it was good it was rewarding you think we should do more of it more schools I mean it was an hour it's an hour all day isn't it and it's mhm I think it's only an hour only an hour ignoring all the prep that goes into it yeah I think I didn't see much prep because you didn't do any of it I sorted out that iery yeah you're doing this you're doing that I heard you had an accounting agenda you got J giving them a presentation on accounting yeah it's just like always think people look it for primary school kids or any sort of children to hand given why don't you go around each department and get compliance to do a no no we don't need more kid don't not the way just it's important their little home budget sounds like you're trying to push your own agenda there dude that's what bitcoin's about it makes you think about slightly more about these things we don't want kids walking off thinking about compliance I think it's good that kids at any level are learning about finances like I went through primary school and high school without learning anything about unless you take finances at six form level you don't learn anything at school same this is a stepping stone in the right direction then well then Dave thank you Dave G CR solid effort I know yeah he didn't he literally just sat sat leave your desk did you just came in no didn't come say hi no well it was lovely it was good yeah I do going forwards definitely I mean we've done in the past haven't we but it's just been ad hoc and maybe we could set something up but I think we' need a proper structure of like here's here's the basics and then we know exactly what we're doing so it's like just jump in and do it um don't just get Dave to throw it together for us yeah ex it meant that everyone had to prepare like little slideshows and stuff it'd be interesting to see how other the age Rangers react to not the same thing but like what do you see the education level in terms of Finance um go up increasing yeah and can you impact several age age kind of ranges yeah I'd like to I'd like to go to like a university and do something similar there where you can to see the one education on the financial economy money side um but to see what their perception of Bitcoin is at different age ranges and and that is in some ways as well a good help to how to then go out and educate people because surely anyone studying economics at the moment surely they've got modules of oh there's no crypto as far as well we start to come in expect us take to they take like 3 to six years don't they to get through the curriculum and get in for anything new so you'd start to see them now maybe you'd start to be seeing it now potentially UK surely um they do they've got courses I think on it but I don't know about modules within existing courses yeah they did like new courses on blockchain and all sorts of things didn't they but if it was like an economy there was an article in Bloomberg last week about um people calling themselves like blockchain and crypto experts by doing there's really no certification that's recognized so they're just doing really short demic coures 4 hours and call themselves blockchain certified or Bitcoin certified so there needs to be some standardization about how it's t Okay well that was it uh no no we got two more things Dear Dave oh can we can we just talk about the bloody theme tune great image you on me last minute get something better will come in when I like it no that was good Williams zimes build up and I liked it no I liked what what was it like some like Benny Hill or something like instantly I mean getting people ready for the answers have then if you have a a grand the answers have got a match that d right I'm ready for this one then this will be massive uh Sean Weber he shaunography on Twitter said do you have any plans for liquid Network integration in the future um so liquid is block stream's version of a layer two on bitcoin right to help help transactions it's a layer two it is a layer two no block stream call it a layer two layer two solution both of you are wrong side chain side chain I would classify more else but I think yeah they're just the liquid neg is a blockchain a Bitcoin L to solution are you guys call side for it's more side chaines so I'm right on that uh probably to help speed up transactions from main chain right 10 minutes they're probably one minute I would say prob I think just again let's let's look at how fast re this is the most butchered answer the reason it's just not sure the reason all the liquid chat has kind of been talked about recently right one to one backed is due to um is it's one to one back I'm not saying I'm saying that's I'm answering Zach all right CU you you answer EXA I know I know quite a bit about liquid but okay yeah the reason why it's kind of come up regularly recently is with the launch backer I assume where they their lightning wallet that also does like submarine swaps straight to liquid and all around the mle like backlog and chain fees to do with lightning and and kind of figured out the best solution to actually scale Bitcoin what is what what's the advantage of going liquid over lightning I would have thought lightning is is probably where most of the bul of development stuff they're not the same but they're trying to solve the same problem no work together to help Bitcoin more than anything yeah so lightning is still um it has is it eight or is there more I don't know how many uh federations there is yeah sorry Latin liquid liquid my bad my I'm not sure doesn't know what he's on about early hours of the morning meetings this morning that you know somebody else should have been there for he's not in my diary not in Dave was late for me yeah missed it wasn't late missed oh yeah got the second half yeah um yeah liquid have X amount say 10 federations whatever that are like the um kind like fediman style thing I guess and if you think of it a little bit like that um so it's not trustless MH it's trusted by them federations um which is because liquid's been around since 200 say 16 17 yeah at least maybe um and haven't really seen much traction If we're honest has it until the aqua until recently obviously with aqua that is not a spinoff from block stream stuff anyway so is it not of course of course they're going to have liquid in it it's not a spin-off it's Samsung's own thing j 3 is used to work yeah and I think they took what's the wallet called green wallet they take green wallet as a base I think build on which was what aqua already had a liquid in it liquid integration uh sh I think so yeah so that's why it's in aqua uh but it's not just they've integrated they're doing it alongside lightning so you can swap lightning for liquid um and liquid back to lightning but like why would you want to uh when the chain fees are so high and you want to get off lightning back onto Bitcoin mhm the when you open a channel your kind of closing Channel fees are preset so if you close and your preset Channel fees are super low your channel will never close CU it'll never get confirmed so you can't get it funded back until it's confirmed whereas they're doing like submarine swap to liquid instead get it on liquid bit coin which you know if that's more adopted you can use it other places right why is a submarine oh God we've gone off the question is yeah um not in the short term okay that's not true well we adopting that in short term it's on a road map it's already on the road map for the tech this year this year yeah I don't know what you classifying is short one to two months got you there then he got well luckily it's next week well you get it for like next week I'll apologize it got added to the road map um for someone's this year 10 minutes ago uh no about a month or two ago is it about two months ago I think we was discussing that um we were going through the road map so yeah we're just saying why have weed because the adoption is growing in liquid um a little bit of adoption in some ways but also obviously with backlog of um if we think the bull Market's coming now and there's going to be a bigger back Club over the next two years then lightning obviously is one solution but then liquid could all be another a scaling solution for us to add in um the downset the reason why we've not said right get it in immediately is because um there's not much adoption out there for yes we've got it but if you can't send to to binance by a liquid for example and a customer wants to send to binance then they're going to have to use onchain or lightning anyway um and coinbase are never going to sport liquid you think it could be slightly confusing for users to have both lightning and liquid yeah yeah so one of the arguments from Aqua is it makes it less confusing that you're not dealing with lightning and opening Channel and stuff but then I I add it actually keeps the confusion cuz you're dealing with lbtc throwing liquid yeah it's it's it be our side wouldn't it well it's better eventually just to be Bitcoin yeah and you just send in Bitcoin and you don't know whether it's going to light in but liquid that's the the ideal eventual solution but that's going to take time and that's much easier custodi when you do non-custodial stuff that becomes a a massive challenge to kind of just have Bitcoin only which is kind of what the a was doing that's custodi and tried to do it in that way to make it seem like it's more seamless in that sense okay um which is a good concept it's just going to be building this out it's still going to take years to to get everybody to interact and work together I guess so what was the GU question what was the guy's name Sean so Sean I think that answers your question it's C more question clear Sean that was perfectly that was for you short or long term short and sweet answer right okay uh announcement time no here we go what do you want Mikey to do little drum this is any better than the Dear Dave segment if it's better than the Dear Dave segment I'll be booting I don't know in true announcement style we don't usually announce it very well do we well no the greatest one ever is still recurring lightning payments now this terrible announcement that was good thank you it's in sync with no t-shirts no B no nothing but bottles oh subtle product placement all all episode oh that's far too close up with your face Danny no one needs to see that yeah uh quo to move it towards you a little bit just try and get there be yeah nice nice sorry uh yeah earlier this month coin Corner acquired the Bitcoin bottle very exciting was a third acquisition yep um yeah so the Bitcoin bottle they've been around I think since 2021 haven't they a couple years or maybe earlier earlier than that yeah yeah um shout out to Chris and Brad for building it up to what it is um but yeah it's now a coin qu product uh available to buy um lovely stainless steel bottle can have hot or cold you've got hot in your one Haven you got cup of coffee in M got a cup of coffee in his um yeah very well made lovely stainless steel nice little Bitcoin emblem on that I'm showing it but I'm too far away from the camera nice little Bitcoin on the bottom and yeah so I think this is all around our education push and Bitcoin and how you market and things like that is difficult in our industry anyway but um keeping Bitcoin brand out there um it's been something that we wanted to maintain which obviously with the mount socks socks that we do the Bitcoin socks um this was kind of just another addition to um keep Bitcoin out there in physical in the physical world I guess um where it keeps reminding people of Bitcoin and I think it's a it's a product we we we knew already and used already anyone that watches the Pod I mind most weeks yeah sat here massive teaser all these weeks all these all this time but we know it's a good solid product that lasts yeah yeah the guys have done really well to build it up to to what it is nice Brandon very nice Brandon yeah we'll take it from here but we remain the same messaging messaging Remains the Same the only thing that's changed is the price price is cheaper we've bought the price down on them so you can get them for 21 Bitcoin only yet uh I think it should be now yeah I'd have to double check well we'll say yes it is by the time this Bitcoin only previously you could we they accepted f it but what Bitcoin is so yeah um and yeah if you're a coin con customer or Bri coin Asner you can use the code cc15 and get it for 15 quid instead of 21 o hello I know live me that uh yes nice they do look cool man I like them to be fair what's the domain the Bitcoin yeah yeah the website that very nice but we didn't do this brand neither the guys that we acquired it from did all this and build just St the coin good looking sorry my kick she just forgot who's in the room nice it's done very professionally and looks nice I like your Tweet the other day where there's loads of Spider-Mans because it was kind of wasn't it gandal was the reply to that you it yeah confused hang on this was you guys no no it wasn't I snuck that in as a little as a little teaser mhm um but yeah excited to to have this on board cool nice looking bottle so yeah cc50 for to get it for 15 quid instead of 21 if you're coin customer MH or brick coin is listener as well excellent yeah you can still you can still pay with card we need to change it quick go to bitcoin only before this out you got one day cool cool right that's it that's it all way to end it all right cheers [Music] bye