Hedgehog Protocol: Asynchronous L2 Bitcoin Payments | Britcoiners by CoinCorner #121

Join Danny, Molly, Zakk and Dave for industry-led opinions on important Bitcoin stories from the week. Topics this week include: Bitcoin price, MicroStrategy acquires more Bitcoin, Grayscale outflows remain accelerated, Bitcoin purchases in Argentina reach highest level in 20 months, Phoenix Wallet announces Phoenix for Server, Danny spent $1.2M on Bitcoin miners, Senate passes $1.2T government funding package, Wladimir van der Laan may return to Bitcoin Core after Craig Wright trial, New EU AML regulation, Hedgehog Protocol, and Dear Dave. Britcoiners is a Bitcoin podcast by CoinCorner (https://www.coincorner.com) - a global leader in Bitcoin and Lightning services. #coincorner #britcoiners #bitcoin #bitcoinpodcast #bitcoinnews

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yeah there settlement going on oh have I missed that oh please miss that oh you yes it's like two years ago live on a settlement [Music] closed welcome back Danny join us when you're ready please uh britcoin is episode 121 121 uh yep welcome back oh uh yes welcome back oh my God sorry mly go on continue welcome back Third Time Lucky like And subscribe please uh that's it let's crack on right agenda this week um micro strategy bought more Bitcoin uh gra scales outflows are still accelerated uh Bitcoin purchases in arent Argentina have reached highest levels in 20 months um Phoenix wallx has announced Phoenix for server and he spent 1.2 million on bitcoin minus uh Senate passes a 1.2 trillion Government funding package Patrick Hansen clears up fur round new EU AML regulation watch let me get through the agenda oh you want me pass it to how's it going do mind oh right it someone just moved it it's all it's gone what are we looking for the The $1.2 Million worth of Bitcoin mining so I step and just Lo up to find it and it's gone cuz it's worth one yeah someone's not really fully understood the concept of that it was there like yesterday I'm sure that's oh my God behind you you anywhere someone's actually well that's like who there's actually a crime like unraveling unraveling live on a podcast that's amazing so we did have a big minor in it there Danny thinks was worth 1.2 million if you look at the Bitcoin price of it and he tweeted about it and then someone now it's not in here are you sure it was in here there it isct picture's there when did you take that picture like last week K you cannot trust anyone in this office well we've got CCTV so you're my suspect it was it was here sounds like abely throw him off five days ago for sure he was definitely here five days ago I the agenda carry on I couldn't I and find the other one as well you won't all right uh carrying on uh Vladimir velan you may come back to bitcoin development after the Craig R trial and Hedgehog nice one right the daes we got a lot of D daes price price go we've just dropped I was just about to say on here it's 70k but it's we're bouncing back American Market's just opened ETFs volume's getting pushed through we should do this every week prices what what price no record got a really good idea about weekly podcast guys the price at two sorry the recording at 2 p.m. which means then that we'll get the live movement and the Market's open in the US which chaos always full yeah okay okay 69400 at the moment more outflows upon us maybe it's SP all mass didn't it did the same it did exactly the same thing yesterday nearly 72k and then back down yeah yeah all up and down yeah High since last episode was 71500 technically not 717 that's today now isn't it yeah well how dated isn't it literally off about 10 minutes ago okay uh first on the agenda micro strategy have acquired an additional 9,245 Bitcoins for 623 million using convertible notes and excess he's still going never a week goes by when he's not when does he just not become news I don't know you can still get the engag so often do you know what is quite interesting Bloomberg reported today that micro strategy and coinbase have a the highest ever levels of shorts against them 11 billion pounds worth of shorts so people are using that as the Hedge mechanism which kind of makes sense if you're an institution in the ETF wants the Hedge against it or the companies that could go down in prices a bitcoin price yeah mhm sensible isn't it but that is actually happening but this what we saw about that headed fund short in micro strategy we talking about a couple weeks ago M that's why y but it's a 11 billion pounds it's a big old Shore isn't it on both of them combined yeah okay to uh yeah is what it is another week another buy from Sailor it doesn't even what like 1% now of the Bitcoins in circulation was it saor how I think he's 24,000 so yeah it's just over 1% yeah average price still at what that's 35,000 for Bitcoin pretty impressive to be first all that more than doubled his money effs on today on average nice cool right remember someone said got you got a listen to the gavel yeah we can barely hear the gav it's the most pathetic thing get me a real one my break let's move on to the next topic then uh gray scale outflows remain accelerated uh Monday is 643 Million Tuesday was 444 million the total is 1.8 billion that was for bar P is for Barry that's what it says on the Tweet that's what it says on the Tweet B for billian Bo he said B for Barry because it's Barry at gr um it was it was a joke Dave it's gone over your head it's long I was like be bar you sure it means billion I think it means billion the yeah just seeing that it's been massive hasn't it recently but yesterday was actually the first day now it's switched back to positives again so there's uh the the average across all ETFs was back into the positives they can't have much left great scale can they there only so long these outflows can last they've yeah they still have a chunk I there s like 15 b or something like that um but it's going to stay chunk that still stay in there they've still got more than every any other ETF right yeah yeah I think black rocks about to flip him okay um so I think Black Rock are now getting close to that but Black Rock have not been doing too well these last few days to be fair on that since Fidelity have been doing the best I think Fidelity is is couple hundred million a day right and I'm wonder is that because Fidelity do their own infrastructure and storage the only one that does I'm interested to see yeah is that appealing to the people investing in these funds or is it just that point in from somewhere else they're just getting some volume at the also if there the net outflow days it means the the gray scale stuff that comes out of gray scale isn't going into another ETF no well we don't know for a lot of it but like it is no interesting is yeah I think a lot of it we know is not because it's like the people have had to liquidate for bankruptcy things and so there's them ones obviously not going back into it um I think the recent one was Genesis was a Genesis yeah um and the is it Genesis and the Winkle VI with Gemini was it their liquidation from this to help pay maybe yeah they got pral in they a few weeks ago to to liquidate it so whether this is that or not would you the number stacked up didn't for that couple of three-day period was it was like 1.3 1.4 billion or something well Adam back was and it was only a few more days of gr scale outflow which was what that was I think yeah which it has yesterday seems to have stopped now not fully stopped but stopped on scale maybe not stopped to going into that price chat that's today yeah we'll see yeah cool anyway moving on uh why you laughing I just think you enjoy that too much I I do it's my voice um Bitcoin purchases in Argentina have reached highest levels in 20 months Bitcoin volume is up 10% uh sorry 10 times uh in 202 2024 this is last year stable coin volumes are down to 60% from 70% as more people buy Bitcoin this was interesting just for me as like we know stable coins are quite popular in those regions but as the price rallies more people are still buying Bitcoin there um do you not think that's you going to see volume increases in a more bullish Year anyway against 2023 is that just yeah why AR see like it's not country specific is it you're probably seeing volume increases everywhere yeah we are so a nothing Burger to me it's a nothing Burger I think it's using data to help an not an AG gender in some way but like a um the word is um help sentiment in some way yeah um the only thing I I don't know I didn't read the article to be honest but in terms of is it I tried to but it was pay world not no I was going to ask him to see if I could read it on your dve is a perfect blueberg customer he BS it up but never reads it tells everyone about thisle whoa whoa whoa I've just come in did you read this article did you read it do I read every article you should read every Bitcoin article you should be reading the Bitcoin ones read every article on Blue Book no but read a lot of important ones um can't read the rest I might go home and read it where did they get where did they get the data from then so I tried to read it and find out is it like cuz it's all percentages is it some small exchange that's done you know an extra $20,000 in in volume but the tick up is a big percentage kind of needs to be a bit it's hard to quantify without the source yeah yeah um app we knew saw on the Bloomberg subscription right get that data I I could have done that I could have like could have been genuine contribution to this pod would be a good bit it was on the agenda it was shared in the WhatsApp chat thing is when he opened it on his PC we just gone right through I know even know the pay pay still ignore still didn't read it Mikey still didn't read it didn't it's been a hell of a busy week anyway should we move on nobody cares people would just see how tired I am and just know that guy's had a busy week um Phoenix wallet have announced beix for Server don't explain to me what that is so we all know and love the Phoenix mobile app non custodia line wallet I'm a big fan of it I use it I know think it's been my main lining wallet since day one big fans of the the guys behind that don't why that's funny I don't know that what we sponsored by him what you do no they quite lightning wallets are available the Phoenix is the best there non-custodial lightning wallet Phoenix is the best and they all do their on all things and stuff like that but they've been just consistently building in the background for years then in ating with like trampoline payments and splicing and that kind of TR yeah yeah we won't get honestly the names of these stuff in the industry just cracks me up but they ESS what have they done they've essentially launched a server version of Phoenix called Phoenix D which is a self- custodial um implementation of their lightning implementation um allowing basically trying to abstract all the channel uh management out of it so it's aimed at like um they're actually aiming it at Merchants for like accepting Bitcoin easily but self custodial and they're just charging a 1% receive fee on top of everything but it's fully self custodial um they are saying they've not put a max volume on that they like a limit of like you could send a million dollars and it'll just work is of what they're saying we should test that should we do it and send a million and see what happens no I mean so long as you don't mind paying 1% on that so as a mer as a merchant I don't have to have my own node is it do I still have to have mod this is your node essentially but it you don't need to do any channel management because they do it all for you by connecting to their bigger node so how's it s custodial of it because you still have the private keys right you're just they're just creating the channel for you and giving you liquidity automatically so you don't need to deal with all the inband liquidity in order to receive payments so for a merchant you know setting up for the first time non-custodial it's quite attractive solution I think so they've done it for years what's the sub Channel called they call I can't remember the name of it uh that Phoenix do where they if you look on like a if it's like an Explorer graph and you see okay Phoenix's wallets here and they have loads of little sub channels for all their wallets for their users so they create a my mind's gone blank the name of that channel it's not a hosted channel is it it's a I think they use private channels yeah it's the private thing is it hosted Channel I don't think so kind with the terminology love to Wade in that with the terminology I would love that yeah be helpful as well yeah um but they they've done up for years so it allows that it's kind of a almost a growth on that in some way in senses as well um and then it's they've put a super simple API on it so of like I think there's like five calls to just like create lightning payment like send lightning payment receive lightning payment send on chain receive on chain okay and then list payments so so dead symbol API so really any kind of developer not in the industry should be able to run this and kind of in and um integrate with it fairly easily okay which I think that's kind of what it's aimed at so it's like having the benefits of custodial someone looking after the network with liquidy yeah yeah a non custo MH and what you're sacrificing is just a 1% fee really for them to kind of manage that that's on power with industry super cool though I think it'll be even cooler for developers in the industry who just need to know to play around with to test things it's that you can just run that deck quickly yeah no need to deal with liquidity stuff yeah yeah would be very handy for them yeah nice one it'd be interesting like from a coin con perspective if we were to make use of something I would be like to our merchants or in a non-custodial way for our customers so you kind of build the non-custodial lightning side into coin corners app for example so then using that behind the scenes can basically pull in and do that um so we could maybe expand on our app or for our Merchants if they want oh yeah so they could give them the choice between custodial yeah interesting um so you could almost just buy Bitcoin with us straight away that goes automatic payment effectively to and your noncustodial S I wonder if you were a merchant whether that really your whether that much optic in terms of custodial non-custodial as a merchant um I just wonder what the appeal is really I get it as a a retailer like dep Bitcoin but regulations in regions as well yeah companies can custody in regions sometimes you just you do need a third party custodian I think yeah businesses are maybe slightly different um bitcoiners will want to if they run around may want to but I think for the majority they're not really too bothered about that they we use a custodial but I for see that as a really I assume they might be jumping on a straightway easy kind of integration with PTC pay server so you actually use that as your backend linning rather than like L&D or core linning and it's a lot more simple for em mergent doing thatway great project though isn't it yeah a phoenix we fun yeah we get that you're not wearing a cool name Prett cool name it is a yeah that would have been great pretty cool name um right next okay next one Danny you spent $1.2 million on bitcoin miners yep stupid yeah stupid you don't even have it anymore . million message and find out where it's gone yeah I don't know where it's gone must be in storage never find it I think Dave there'll be a note on your desk for the ransom so Dave's Dave stuck it 1.2 million please that one is only about was 800k was it the other one's like 400k so you've over pay there mate cuz we've got manners in this office you 200 P um yeah it was just I think to the point of that tweet there was a a one going around I think in the same day that was saying about you know you were in Bitcoin in 2011 and 12 and 13 for and stuff if you're if you were in then and you're not like some multi-millionaire then you're an idiot and it's like that's just not reality that's not how the world works I'm an idiot it's just highlighted you're an idiot in general people are not idiots for that um because you back then like when you think back in like my I think first Bitcoin wallet was 2011 is my f my first one I still have it's from like 2011 um and again at the time I had no idea what bigcoin was and was playing around with the wallet and playing around with it but didn't really do anything 2012 started to pay a bit more attention 2013 started to mine um but even then it was still like we went to get bank accounts when in 2013 we started mining we need a bank account for the money to go into and we went to get bank accounts we turned up at like mainstream Banks and saying about like getting a a an account for Bitcoin mining they didn't even know Bitcoin was they didn't know what mining was obviously um they just ended up a lot of them just was saying no because they just didn't understand what we were talking about they thought it was like an in-game currency thing and online um and we ended up finding a bank account that would do it but it was just it was ridiculous it's like nobody had a clue what Bitcoin was what it was going to become we didn't even understand it really at the time in terms of the economy and the finance side of things of what Bitcoin is today it just wasn't a thing so you just played around with stuff like that and you it was almost a hobby for us at the time um and we you know the amount of Bitcoin and um random altcoins as well I've probably lost wasted over the years it's crazy because you just don't realize at the time that's what it is um it's not the same as today it's easy with hindsight to look back and say oh yeah you've held it but most people I know from back in the early days have over the years you know life gets in your way what did you do for Holiday the other week you have to do these things life gets in the way you might have had $10,000 worth of bitcoin back into 2012 but then you need some money for your car breaks down you need $5,000 you sell your Bitcoin which now is worth tens of millions but back then it was $5,000 so you sold it so you bought these miners with your Bitcoin well obviously because they're miners you made it all back straight away because it would have worked for years and years course yeah they worked for years and years in my head yeah um so yeah we bought them 10.6 for the Bitcoin one um and 8.9 was the script based one so that's like altcoins so it's like Litecoin Dogecoin um that one turned up and Lally didn't work it didn't work it worked for about an hour or two I think it was and then it just went and we was like what we're trying to fix it trying to contact the company it just it was an absolute noo we opened it up in the end and it's soldered and done so bad like there's glue everywhere inside and stuff it's such a mess um it is an absolute mess is who did you buy it from is the company still going no te no no they the script based one shut down within about a month or two after we bought it the coin Tera one I think they shut down as well coin now but they they were one of the big ones back in the day um now that one has like it sounds like a helicopter's taking off it's ridiculously loud um but it's got two um kind of main two fans and two chips sort of set separately within it um so that one still works but only one half of it works the other half doesn't I wonder what the hashing rate is comparable to what like the basic S9 You' be getting half of the hash rate of what that should be getting anyway on that as well and then yeah don't know what just comparison is to an S9 have to Google it and find um but we over the years we kept they were 2013 when we wor them I think it was um so we ended up keeping them over the years and I've just dragged them around from office to office that we've moved to and event I've always wanted the displayed in now had them kind of just getting in the way weren they yeah just in the way of everything we just use them as weights really to pin stuff down yeah we did food a lot of SN I mean they looked cool in the office yeah I'll edit that to you yeah I mean that does not look cool I'll love to find the script based one as well because the script based one looks like it's proper amateur like we'll I'll show them I'll show everyone that at some point um but yeah the point is it's like if just because you've been in Bitcoin a long time doesn't mean you're a multi-millionaire and if you're not a multi-millionaire you're not an idiot you know that was life like honestly we when the um firsty pigeon started accepting Bitcoin here in the alaman in 20 14 and we were buying people drinks in Bitcoin it was the first time like place in the Alabama was accepting Bitcoin um and so Pine drink average was like say3 pound time this was back when the price was like $180 and I think we spent on we had like a big meet up thing one night and it was like we probably spent maybe a grand on drinks which is like five bit coins now M so now that's yeah and we just give that away we were buying to come and part enjoy in hindsight it's like you look back and it's actions like that is why it's been adopted I think if everyone just bought it in held for a store of value then we wouldn't be here I don't think yeah we're all in this long enough now to have the same simar stories though in terms of stuff we' bought it's now worth thousands and the people I was going to say I think Joe Nakamoto did a story on it didn't he couple a year or so ago about things that we'd bought with Bitcoin cuz we got cuz you you spent was it 50 50 cents album yeah yeah I bought a postcard of my cats which is now worth like $300 at the time it was like Matt bought a PC game I think yeah he did he with his it was like half a Bitcoin that well he got yeah half a Bitcoin for interning with us back in that was 2014 is it 15 15 yeah I think there's plenty of stories out yeah most people I've talked to that has held their coins it's more been like Lo or they've just forgot they've had them that kind of thing completely nobody had the conviction back then very few just was it was you don't have the information the education the the time yeah exactly it's an early experiment yeah I I then later to cheer Dave up last week I later shared with him um a breakdown of uh all the different things over the years that I've lost in terms of cryptocurrencies yeah that did make me feel better just cheered me up it cheered him up cheered him up I mean there's so Danny's lost Millions it was brilant it was with the GM ions I know why that cheered me up so much when I say lost as well that's not I've literally like lost the wallets and like that it was like cryy was a big one I had a cryy account and we had like this was 2013 time maybe um so had like loads of all coins in there I think I had about $1,000 of altcoins maybe is in there and he closed up shop and ran away with everyone's money and big ver he was called Big ver big you trusted you trusted a guy called Big ver y cpsy tsy at the end big F seems legit and well at the time you just you it was like the popular altcoin exchange that everyone went to basically um yeah there settlement going on oh have I missed that oh please miss that oh you kid yes it's like two years ago Man live on air settlement closed oh unlucky how do I join that too late look no later than April 26th to 2022 are oh brilliant I'll show you up as well gold, Google Crips in we literally got all your money back it's just gone two years ago now though missed that I didn't see that at all okay oh so yeah it thousand worth of random coins that now it was like Dogecoin Litecoin or them which obviously the price now is yeah probably would have given you the feat value at the time yeah I imagine won't get anything back more but not even that I would assume you've you know you you used a lot of it to reinvest back into the business right so it's like the company wouldn't be here if you just bought and held yeah it's still not summed up so yeah for coin Corner as well yes um used that over the years um also the mining because obviously we bought that mining machine with so that uh is it six what was it 16 18 was 19 Bitcoin wasn't used one block reward bang then well that was mining rewards that was from the mining we did with the graphics cards so all of that and then we bought um from uh not what's it called ah not scan scan. UK scan PC PC stuff so we bought all the graphics cards from they were accepting Bitcoin at the time so we ended up we were Mining and buying from them constantly so we ended up and we bought I think it was 180 graphics cards from them which were the r9s I think back then um and that was in what we was saw reinvesting from Bitcoin of what we were mining so again like tally that up God knows yeah it's ridiculous but you did used to do that uh Dogecoin we were mining that on day one um because it was Reddit it came from Reddit originally and it kind of came out um so the soon as that launched we had like our graphics cards ready to go hit hit out with we had about eight machines with at the time I think and but at the time I think we were like nearly 50% of the hash rate for the network for do CL on day one uh so we ended up with tons like what now is yeah lots of millions of dollars worth but yeah you sold that bought more graphics cards and that's what you did at the time um otherwise yeah we probably wouldn't be here today I agree spending it showing people how to spend it in thirsty pigeon and doing them sort of things helps spread awareness of Bitcoin and educates on bitcoin so that sacrifice I guess it's been a net positive for the industry to move forward it's for a great story as well yeah I'm not you know I'm not it's one of them I'm did it to cheer Dave up and send him all the things I'd lost I was kind of hoping you'd be more bitter about it but I don't care it's like you that's what it is crushed like it's keeping you awake at night but no it doesn't really must let that it's part of part of life cing uh Senate passes 1.2 trillion Government funding package avoiding partial shutdown there we go that's inflationary me print go brute people need to be wary of these sort of news articles that is a money print right there magic up 1.2 trillion if you ever a look at the graphic of how much a trillion looks like as a that was a really good video on yeah that is such a good video in terms of how much it actually is people can't comprehend it cuz it's 1.2 sounds quite low but if you look at it it's a lot so they're not really going to measures where they balance in the books they are still having to print quite a considerable amount because of the interest it'll still keep increasing and the um inflationary rates haven't really reduced to where they'd want to be Target at 2% so that's something that would push uh inflation back up so nobody seems to care I know I don't think they do nobody cares Dave so yeah saying that then I think you care yeah I don't I'm I'm saying that like Dave saying no you're probably right no one cares yeah nobody does care what you're saying either no nobody cares what is happening there it's crazy that is the basis of the whole world economy and they are not balancing their books and pretty pretty happy to print 1.2 trillion but when it becomes the norm which it has become over recent years more so well if nobody cares it's become the norm it's becomes the norm and people just get used to it it's just they don't even B an eye with it it's even that with inflation right four is going to be the new four is going to be the new two right no I think so because UK was 3.4 fiveish aren't they and they're already talking about cutting their rates so they had enough of the austerity measures like it's forced Germany into recession uh so they're all going to cut their rates because no politician wants to be taking their country into a recession because it's not good not good for the votes and this is this is what happens is bad money made worse that is great visualization that that is impressive that's so I thought I'd high like that just Doom and Gloom wow yeah that is crazy isn't it yeah but what can we do buy Bitcoin is the only thing we can do in bracket that brackets in Double Stack pallets yeah didn't see that as well yeah okay Bitcoin is the peaceful protest do that okay it's a lovely quote thank you right moving on something a bit more positive uh thought you were going to talk Vladimir van Vladimir vanan that's a mouth to say States you may come back to bitcoin development after the creek right trial who so who is this guy that's what I asked before the Pod and I got absolutely expect it from Dave shame he don't believe pretend to like if you don't know you don't know who who is he what's his history where's he been uh he's MIT I think actually I think he's still MIT I don't know if he's ever so like research at MIT somewhere but he's um been the lead cordev for many years since satosi got how did you get that title well satosi hands it you have to contribute D surely surely it's Luke Dash no no V was yeah was satachi handed him the keys yeah whoa it was him and Gavin wasn't it was um but then he basically has been the lead contributor for it from I don't know what was it maybe 2011 I can't read remember the days um through to 2020 was it 2021 was it when he handed El couple years ago it was when basically Craig Wright started suing cord trying to go them he stepped back and handed the keys to who did he give them keys to in the end I don't know I know Marco does a lot of the main maintaining the key what do you mean the keys keys to the kingdom though there is okay I think that's a centralization problem it is yeah there's L it's only to bitcoin call right there's several other Bitcoin implementations yeah Luke does Bitcoin knots and things like that so he has his own version but he also contributes to the main brush the Bitcoin Wiki says that his successor was no more lead maintainer it was Gavin Anderson before him and then it was he's got split now between um is it m yeah Marco FAL isn't it uh Michael Ford um Jonas yeah for the three I had in my head I don't know oh pet Peter Will's pretty much steep back as well isn't he recent I don't know he's been very quiet um he's another very very good one um but yeah for Vladimir to come back at some point yeah that would be Vlad was very much there when we were getting into it and we wrote the guides forco Gordman and he was happy about that he kind of helped us with that and kind of right it's pretty cool so it's good news that he's coming back if he comes back yeah if he comes back right it's a shame he had to step away because of that I know yeah he must feel like it's a relief off his shoulders now at this point he say he's got some personal issues I think as well and stuff but he's um hopefully coming back which is so we had a few other people disappear at that time for similar reason so I wonder if they'll start coming back oh yeah I think you as well um John yeah all for the cig writers as they thought they're going to get suited don't right great great news then that's really good news yeah okay cool um I I missed before Patrick Hansen clears up F and misinformation on the new EU AML regulation yeah so there's just all Twitter the other day yeah all over Twitter that self custodian wallets are getting banned in Europe it's never been the case um the in short it's just basically what Mah which is the regulation coming into Europe um was already looking to do um I don't understand what I I saw the article where it came from but that article was the only source that anybody had and that article also didn't really give it any detail of anything so you had to go away and actually find the actual documents um and read them properly so self custody wallets aren't getting banned no right no um the thing is what what it is kind of around is like your travel rule really so the travel rule being if um one vasp sends or they call it casps on their but vasp send to another asasp um you would have to communicate between the two vasp of who's sending this transaction who's receiving this transaction and there's communication ler travel rule has already been implemented in being done in the background by pretty much every Exchange in the world now um so it doesn't really do anything or change anything because it only applies to vasp or casps not your not self but then the problem was if you send in from a people were thinking if you send in from non-custodial wallet into the vasp you're not allowed to they were Banning that they're not Banning that they're just creating that into like a travel rule or trying to move I guess that into what would be like a travel rule esque thing but that's something that um technically again in the background there's chainalysis elliptic and all these sort of tracking tools where you send on chain from noncustodial to yourself we can theoretically see it's non-custodial and would know effects but it's come from and you say okay it's come from being great verified M um it's not like they just want um it's kind of like when you take cash into a bank let's say and you give the cash to um the counter and they say Where's that $10,000 come from so my car thanks they Dr it down and off to go it's kind of a little bit like that in that sense it's not they're not trying to ban it they're just trying to make sure there's it's trackable um it's a great headline though isn't it uh yeah I mean it went all it was literally all over Twitter for a day or so this industry has it to say like a strap liners don't trust verify yeah none of them verif clearly bit hypocritical isn't it yeah but I did send that in the main Chad in trying to explain roughly what it was before then he put a way better explanation out than I did um which yeah he's a a lawyer I think as well which is always useful someone stealing your sweeping Crown right there isn't it he did yeah were you're about to put a tweet out saying this is rubbish no I shared it with you guys before he did that and I was planning to sweep up this podcast but he's already done it so he like we're going to start beef with him fellow sweeper on your on your sweep you can take my spot stop stop cleaning my ropes you can take my spot um cool right you on swear of time you got to go in eight minutes yep uh Hedgehog a protocol for I don't know howd say that as asynchronous layer two bitco payments not just a cute little animal now our WhatsApp group blew up last night in terms of the chat on this I think I didn't understand anything that was going on I think you were OV excited you got carried away with yourself can be and you need to apologize to that WhatsApp group because me and Zach had a good sign fantastic it's a super test take this to the DM boys for the ones that want to know what it was I've watched the video I read about it just read it oh of course yeah onr it's basically like I would Des I like the analogy of checks it's checks a bit just read his yeah I read it yeah it's checks for Bitcoin so yeah one of the problems at the moment with like layer 2s like lightning it's all about off offline payments not possible um so super test net um has come up with this idea which super simple idea um kind of another layer two but can also interact with other layer twos of doing kind of offline asynchronous payments analogist to checks mhm and super testet is a person not an institution as I found out I was speaking to Z about it this morning Super Test net group some great work just one guy he called himself Super Test net oh yeah he's just doing so much so I'm going to call myself super main net this is also the guy that created bit VM yeah and also what did he before bit VM as well there was something he's been like paying attention to for a while what he's doing doing for uh no one's FAS yeah I don't know yeah just a Lone Ranger is this related to the bit VM permissionless clarification that you shared the other day uh I don't think it's related no I can't remember if I read that to beest I haven't read it but I think that's something else to do with bit VM yeah I think I just shared that to come back to read later and back to it so so this Hedgehog thing so if I've got my normal lightning payment I need my node online to receive anything right whereas with this I don't have to be online I just have to come online to to come get it you'll get the message from me that I've sent the payment and I can't take that back within say two weeks which is why it's like a check made payable to David Yeah Yeah from it's better than a check but yeah a check's a good way to think about yeah that's I I've got my head into it quite quickly a check as in once I've signed that and pass that to you I can't unsign that within the two week period after two weeks I can unsign it but with a check you can sign it and give it to someone and if your bank's empty then they can't claim it anyway from so um but with this you can I don't have a choice of pulling this back yeah the keys on this one is it's sender initiated so liting is traditionally receiver initiated you have to create an invoice so you have to be online whereas this as a sender you can do it and obviously you can receive offline as long as you come online at some point but the people that say use en lightning via coin Corner they wouldn't have this problem because our nodes are always online yeah so it's like it's non cust it's non custodial benefit isn't it it's non cust we could make use of it so we could still make use of that in in certain ways um so even trying like Bol card related because people are trying to compare it to the equivalent of like an Ln URL with draw which is what we use on the Bol card and that's technically offline as well but it's offline in a custodial way because yeah trusting is online yeah but you are offline as an individual so there's this allows it to be completely offline from both parts if that makes sense MH which I don't know if cuz bolt 12 is supposed to be the the non-custodial trustless version of L and URL essentially yeah lightning and almost can you do this on B 12 would be my question I don't know the answer to we would need we just to email super rusty rusty rusty would have some opinions on that yeah we have to check of what he's been saying because he's a big he's cuz that's sender in that can be sender initiated right which one key of here and offline I assume come back and claim at a later point but then does this make ball 12 redundant in in the sense of the offline payment side if you can use this than Vault 12 and it's already ready to go it's not like we've got to all add cuz not barely anybody in industry has really added B 12 as well have um whereas this is just a ready to go doesn't need a software the issue with this is right does it is it is it it's own Layer Two that competes with lightning or do you integrate into lightning so you have like Hedgehog channels um then you need to get all the lightning uh implementation developers on board with it add it to their lightning thing no no so do you say like do you say I'm sending Bitcoin via Hedgehog you're just sending Bitcoin I I don't know but lightning yeah I tried to avoid that these days and try and not specify you just sending Bitcoin because it complicates it when because it could be VI liquid it could be chain it could now be via Hedgehog yeah So eventually I think once everybody you get to a certain point where there'll be even if there's four or five main methods and protocols that you can send Bitcoin over the customer should not no and should understand it's just good you send a bank transfer at the minute you send a GBP bank transfer from yours to another account you don't know if it's going over a faster payments or backs or uh what's the other one chaps um or Swift for instal but people don't know what they are behind the scenes they just send money and it goes yeah okay quick right we got to fly through the day daes ready over there for it like the de daes ready ready ready I literally got going a minute I might have to pass the de Dave on if you changed that for a better one better theme called a dear Danny Oh you mean for someone else to oh great one for someone good thought that is right dear Dave what's the difference between an ETF and an etn uh no idea did you look into that one you know we should we should Googled it yeah answer this one I just Googled you could have stitched no I didn't have time to Google I can Google it so we've already explained this we spoke about it on uh some no we talked about it I don't think we explain the difference yeah we did we we actually Googled there you go we can read that out etn are Structured Products that are issued as senior debt notes while ETFs represent a stake in the underlying commodity um yeah person could have just Googled that themselves really makes no sense to him still don't don't bash don't you just reading the don't bash a list question's a question yeah come on the the Dear Dave Army will be if we the boil EMG we need the engagement I am happy to Google and read stuff out on the Pod for people um yeah a couple for you then semantics really isn't it uh I think for memory etn if a high level is I would love it has ating what's actually if I remember this properly memory might be is on the scor if I remember correctly if I remember correctly no etns are have a limit I like say the shares for example so they wouldn't be pegged one to one for the Bitcoin price in that sense they would whereas I think with an ETF you can have an unlimited amount of you can keep increasing the the size of what's in there and what's held underneath whereas ET I think is locked in from day one of the size in some respects I can't remember the exactly tell that but no that's fair enough okay hope that answered your question de% does I more complaints about how we're answering these two days it makes me look back one one of the questions last week was de Dave can I ask the same question again which was about L easy I have I have no idea what was going on last time you only questions you get one chance and you get a very mumbled answer from me who's always in a r is there another question there was uh Dear Dave uh Dan explained to me that e- money account holders in will in the near future be issued with Debit Visa cards could these Visa cards use the bolt card designs by any chance no not right now we've how much can we say about this product you can talk about it's fine so the Visa card has limit will be limited to two designs for now proved by Visa they have to get approved they have to go through a vis approval process which they've already been approved so we're ready to go with them but we might could you'd still have to get approval for virtual we could have the Bitcoin logo on the it was yeah exactly yeah we did discuss it pre pre-designed yeah um yeah having the Bitcoin logo on the Visa card was an issue you got to get Visa approval so it's which gray area the best they've got the Bitcoin L on yeah so at the minute unfortunately no but let's see his future future moves mhm I'd say it probably still be still will be the coolest card in your wallet maybe other than the B card you've got one still look good does look good but it's it's our old style in some ways but it you could buy you know people sell like debit card skins they just look sticky you put over it yes so we've looked they were what we looked at people really bothered about what what it looks like yeah yes cuz it's a popular I feel like for like a minute yes and then and once you've got it you when you first open it like that's sweet that maybe that's should do stickers got an idea I'll come back to it R stickers that was exact idea is it skin no no we'll come back to it come back to it right okay okay cool at the end of the Dave once it's done and nailed uh there was another one yeah it wasn't de Dave but um it was a podcast called political currency and we were taged saying did be hear that coverage I'm going to watch that yeahor who was the other guy Ed Balls man that guy can he's just doing the rounds and sign his name to anything though he like yeah has anyone seen the sick of it yeah it's like it's the parody of what political it's it's just like that the thck of it yeah remember when he when he would when he would ties and they like offer him loads of shows and stff like that yeah yeah retired politicians just actually living that this to me and Dave talking about the thick of it highly recommend to all yeah oh God if you not watched that you're heads in the sand I've never even heard of it that doesn't surprise it doesn't surprise it's like a maybe a chief weapon all of his swear Antics he'll literally sh your red yeah I've been too too busy spending money on bitcoin miners to about that mining upate have we got a mining update sorry I thought we were going to announ this week L it's working what I tell you not announced anything this week if we've got nothing else to shoot you have to go there's there is we will to have an announcement I mean it's Wednesday and it's a bank holiday weekend so nothing weekend has messed it up right thanks enj everyone [Music] cheer